Enmity System Explanation and Planned Adjustments

[Mazura]

One other point I'd like to make. I'm not entirely sure, but I thought that the point of these proposed enmity changes was to fix the recent problem we've had with mages ripping hate off of tanks with simple spells like barspells, self buffs, etc. ? Honestly, any advantage that lowering the enmity gain of those mage spells would have had will be negated in situations with a Ninja tanking due to the equal cut in Ninjutsu magic enmity gain. Though this only applies to situations where a Ninja is tanking, for low man groups that use Ninja all the time this wont really change much, the mages will still peel hate off the Ninja. Again, I suggest, reconsider the enmity changes for ninjutsu spells.

[fernando]

One thing i know is i,on PLD hitting some mob in Adoulin for like 5-6 rounds with a flash, and sentenal used,my whm used cure IV on me and stole hate.........just sayin.

[Caketime]

One thing i know is i,on PLD hitting some mob in Adoulin for like 5-6 rounds with a flash, and sentenal used,my whm used cure IV on me and stole hate.........just sayin.

That afternoon was absurd enough that I shelved WHM temporarily, I hope this upcoming update doesn't just break enmity more.

[xiozen]

Why would you reduce enmity values on NIN spells? I thought you development types were on board with NINs being tanks now?

Hmm, I do recall seeing a post back in 2005... let's see... it said something like this:
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From Playonline:
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Changes to Utsusemi and Ranged Attacks
The next version update will make battle more strategic for players who use Utsusemi or ranged attacks.
*Changes to the ninjutsu "Utsusemi"
In the next update, the player's enmity will decrease when a shadow image created by Utsusemi is absorbed by an attack.

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So to me at least it makes sense to further reduce enmity gain on ninjutsu.... okay... moving forward in time, these were added:

Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

Quote:
A host of job adjustments and additions are in the pipes for the upcoming version update, including formidable new abilities for ninjas. Other jobs, too, are scheduled to benefit from myriad adjustments to magic and abilities. In this, the first part in the job adjustment series of articles, we cast the spotlight on ninjas, Vana'diel's agents of stealth and deception.

New Job Abilities
Accomplished in both offense and defense, the art of ninjutsu has over the years proven to be a favorite among adventurers across the land. Now, with the addition of the following two new abilities, ninjas can further enhance either their efficiency in offense or aptitude in defense as befits the situation.

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...666/4666_5.jpg
- Yonin (Lv.40 Ability Delay: 5 min. Duration: 5 min.)
Increases enmity and enhances "ninja tool expertise" effect, but impairs accuracy. Grants a bonus to evasion and critical hit rate when in front of target.

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...666/4666_7.jpg
- Innin (Lv.40 Ability Delay: 5 min. Duration: 5 min.)
Reduces enmity and impairs evasion. Grants a bonus to accuracy, critical hit rate, and ninjutsu damage when striking target from behind.

- Yonin
Strengthens one's ability to fend off blows from the enemy.
While in effect, Yonin increases enmity and enhances the effect of "ninja tool expertise" in exchange for reduced accuracy. Further bonuses are granted to evasion and critical hit rate when engaging your target from the front.
The potency of the above effects gradually decreases over time.

- Innin
Strengthens one's ability to deal damage to the enemy.
While in effect, Innin lowers enmity in exchange for reduced evasion. Further bonuses are granted to accuracy, critical hit rate, and ninjutsu damage when striking your target from behind.
As with Yonin, the potency of the above effects gradually decreases over time.

*Notes
The effects of both Yonin and Innin are mutually exclusive. Activating one while the other is in effect will result in the nullification of the one originally in effect.
Yonin and Innin have a shared ability delay. For example, a ninja who uses Yonin must wait for five minutes to elapse before either ability becomes usable again.

In implementing these new abilities, the development team has taken into consideration character positioning during party play and many other factors. To ensure a smooth gaming experience for all, testing and adjustments will be carried out to the fullest extent that time permits.
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I fail to see anywhere where SE specifically said, Ninja was designed to tank. If that was posted anywhere please provide the information for review.

I see where certain abilities were introduced to add a level of "strategy" but just because the player base used the job as a tank (forever) doesn't mean that was what was intended. Now, if SE turns around and decides not to further decrease enmity gain on ninjutsu spells, (as noted by their most recent announcement), then perhaps its an indicator that they have acknowledged that the player base has elected to utilize the Ninja job as a form of "tank", and are accepting of that designation.

Just my 2-cents worth. XD

[Tennotsukai]

Shhhhhh. Don't mess with our tanking.....

oh.. oops.

[Babekeke]

If Barspells are generating too much enmity... surely the WHM AOE versions should also receive an enmity decrease? Or is WHM now intended to tank; what with barspells, and spamming cure V cureskin on themselves.

As for Utsusemi: This will also reduce the enmity of any DDs/mages going /NIN, so it's not all bad. They should have left the nukes and enfeebles alone though.

[Yinnyth]

That afternoon was absurd enough that I shelved WHM temporarily, I hope this upcoming update doesn't just break enmity more.

When was enmity ever not broken? There has always been something that someone could complain about giving too much or too little enmity.

I agree with your overall hope that these changes will not make things worse than they already are, but considering the previous change, the things Camate listed make sense. We just had hate generated from damage drastically cut, so job abilities and spells which generate static amounts of hate had their enmity generation abilities boosted as a side-effect. All the things listed in Camate's thread (except raise, which is a slight wtf moment) are more effective at holding hate than they used to be, and most of those things, no one wants to hold hate by using them.

The ninjas who want to hold hate raise a valid point in that ninja has a distinct lack of hate tools, and these recent damage-hate nerfs gave them a slight boost. I think the ninjutsu issue should be cured more by NIN's stances, however. Leave the current values as they are, halve them if the NIN is under the effect of innin, double if under the effect of yonin.

Or maybe you could come up with some better, more accurate values for what it should be. My suggestion is just a generalization of how it should work, not perfection.

[Zhronne]

Baramnesia/Baramnesra are missing. Is this on purpose or a mistake?

Also I'm not convinced about the reduced hate on NIN. Altough I guess if a NIN want to tank he still has the option of using the elemental wheel but... wouldn't it have been better leaving the original enmity to those other spells as well?
SE seems to have forgotten over the last years that NIN is a job that, in theory, is supposed to tank as well.

[Yinnyth]

No, they just remembered that if they decrease the hate that damage and cures give, they should also decrease the hate that other actions give. If subbing bard for threnody spam is nerfed, why shouldn't ninjutsu spells be nerfed?

I should mention that I'm not saying I have the perfect answer for this problem. Ninja DOES have troubles holding hate compared to other tank jobs, so the recent damage and cure enmity nerf was a temporary boost to their ability to hold a mob's attention. But Camate's changes are basically knocking ninjutsu back down to what it used to be for hate generation purposes. It's not a nerf, it's just restoring things to the way they used to be.

I should also mention that I would love to see nin given some more options for building hate. But nin is a job that could be played either low-enmity or high-enmity based on its stances. If anything, the effect that the stances have on enmity should be what's changed.

[Kincard]

Frankly Ninjutsu barely sees any use anymore outside of Utsusemi. The debuffs see the light of day assuming you're running low man but then it's not much of a challenge to hold hate low-man, I'm only casting them because there isn't a WHM/RDM/SCHwithsub enfeebling stuff for me. Slow 1 caps higher than Hojo: Ni and presumably a similar thing goes on with blind and paralyze. If they want me to use the spells outside of those situations they need to either strengthen ninjutsu enfeebles or add the San line into the game. If on the other hand I'm in a larger group I won't be playing NIN at all, but even if I did, damage outpaces Ninjutsu's enmity generation by such a large degree it won't even matter.

So while it makes no sense and shows a lot about how the dev team handled NIN it really isn't going to change much about how the job is played. Or not played, I suppose.