Enmity System Explanation and Planned Adjustments

[Yinnyth]

The logic behind these two statements seem contradictory to me. Similar to blue mage, red mage is also very capable of withstanding a beating if they pull hate. Why, then, allow blue mage to potentially tank, but not red mage?

If I'm not mistaken, the difference is that rdm would do it well. Far better than blu would. With access to stronger refresh than blu, massive fast cast bonuses, protect and shell V, phalanx, and self-cures, and utsusemi while subbed nin, rdm is nearly impossible to kill. Handing them hate tools that are more effective than what other jobs have would be irresponsible unless it is your goal to redefine rdm from "jack of all trades, master of none" to "TANK ALL THE THINGS!!"

That being said, looking at the enmity values for ninjutsu (80CE,240VE for debuffs and 1CE,300VE for utsu), I don't see what's so scary about rdm spamming these things. Even with chainspell on, it takes about 3 seconds to cast a spell(accounting for animation delay before you can take another action), and the 300VE from utsu would be gone in 5 seconds.

[Nebo]

The logic behind these two statements seem contradictory to me. Similar to blue mage, red mage is also very capable of withstanding a beating if they pull hate. Why, then, allow blue mage to potentially tank, but not red mage?

RDM is kinda in the same boat as THF. SE hates them.

"NOOOOO!!!! FILTHY RDM!!!! WHY YOU SORO MY SKY GODS!!!!!???"

RMT Killed THF for us. SE is still spouting bullshit like "We fear the past where you could Steal Gold coin => HIDE => Repeat" for reasons we can't have nice things NOW....even though that technique has not been possible for many, many years....and they have killed everything that was ever good about any thief-like ability the job ever had.

They have deep emotional wounds about the past apparently. Maybe we should get the development bros some counseling so we can get some job adjustments that are actually worth anything?

[hideka]

Blood Pacts, Retreat, and Release do not generate enmity, and as such were not included in the list.

I officially call BS. i cannot tell you the number of times ive used retreat AFTER THE AVATAR HAS HIT THE MONSTER, with ZERO prior enmity on my part, and retreat has caused the monster to target me. same with blood pacts wards. ive sent the avatar in, popped BP Ward, and the monster comes flying my way. methinks you need to research this. i think you have these abilities confused with assault, release and avatars favor.

[Sargent]

That is not necessarily what is happening here though. An avatar can beat on it for a bit (and I don't mean 2 hits, it can be close to a dozen rounds), and for your first action against the mob since your avatar first hit it, you use a BP and it will come after you. From that point on, nearly ANY action you take puts you at risk again--regardless of how much damage your BP did.

This was NOT the case prior to these changes.

I'm fully aware of the present situation. I've always been very enmity conscious when soloing on SMN, even to the point of prioitising Regen over Cure to restore HP since I'm used to longer solo fights back at level 75. I'm simply pointing out the fact that the activation of a Blood Pact generates some (if only a little) enmity. Contrary to;

Blood Pacts, Retreat, and Release do not generate enmity, and as such were not included in the list.

This is completely false, at least on the Blood Pact part. The evidence in my previous post proves that.

[Nebo]

However, we've included ninjutsu in the scope of our adjustments due to the fact that red mages who use ninja as their support job could cause the same issues from the past to arise.

You mean....issues like the development team stepping in and showing us how to swing by using RDM tanks to kill AV in a super helpful and informative video?

Seriously though: Why are you so scared of RDM tanking?

You've done it. You've killed them. No more pinning, no more tanking. No real enfeebling magic value, no real healing magic value, no real nuking value, no real support value, next to no melee value.

You don't have to be afraid of them any more....just....stop....hitting them.

[Yinnyth]

The AoE Bar- spells were removed from the scope of our adjustments due to the fact that the amount of enmity is very low. While the enmity depends on the amount of party members, the effect duration is quite long and is normally cast before battle, and if you need to it cast during battle, it's something you can use when Provoke and other front-line job enmity generation methods are being used.

I neglected to bring this up earlier because I thought for certain someone else would, but bar<element> spells don't last nearly as long as they used to.

For those of you not currently in the know, barspells used to last 3-5 minutes depending on your enhancing skill. After the release of SoA, barspells last 150 seconds (2.5 minutes) seemingly regardless of enhancing skill.

I'm not sure if anyone has submitted a bug report on this yet. I'm not sure if it was an intended change or not. But I am sure that the average boss fight lasts slightly longer than 2.5 minutes.

Edit: Thank you, Calintpso. Clicking the link associated with your "Every GM ever" signature showed me that they are aware of the problem, and hopefully it will be addressed soon. Barspell duration, not how much trouble you have in reives.

[THD]

Blood Pacts, Retreat, and Release do not generate enmity, and as such were not included in the list.

I believe you are incorrect. Initiating blood pacts (at least RAGE) WILL generate enmity, which is an issue, more so for soloing.

EXAMPLE: I cast Shiva. I assault, the mob won't attack me, but I'm added on the hate list. Shiva misses the mob with a melee attack. If I use Blood Pact: Rage-Heavenly Strike, that mob WILL turn on me and attack me, until Shiva pulls hate back off me.

I've been soloing on SMN since 2005, so I've adapted my strategies to compensate for the shift in hate. So I know at least the Rage Blood Pacts store some sort of enmity on me.

P.S. When will Cait Sith be released?

[Karah]

Hello,

Thanks for the feedback thus far since my previous post.

We've seen a couple of questions, so I would like to provide some responses.

Camate, I know that you're just the messenger... but what is this absolute nonsense?

Barspells being cast before the battle is true... but you dont WANT US killing things in 3 minutes... OF COURSE we're going to have to re-apply bar's MID FIGHT...

ARE YOU SERIOUS about giving rdm/nin a hard time about POSSIBLY tanking something again?
If RUN can (it really can't it sucks ((IMO)) tank something... it's really silly to cripple RDM from having it's tools as well.

The summoner/Beastmaster remarks are just flat out incorrect. Abhorrently wrong. > this one was actually addressed, but how do you even make that mistake in the first place...

[Areayea]

thank you camate, great to know that BLU and NIN can be effective tanks again ; however, just 2 quetions (both still regarding SMN); is summoning magic enmity going to be decreased, there is a whole other thread just regarding that question... it seems that most of us smn solo artists are having difficulty keeping enmity on our avatar while camping, due to the fact that we are getting too much enmity just by casting the summons. Second question is you did not include assault in there, is that going to remain the same where it's an introductory very minimal hate generator, or does it produce a lot more now, and we just have to hope the monster gets enmity on us for the pet to auto-attack.

PS I did remember, is it possible that you could make Blood pacts generate more enmity, since that would help solo-summoners/party-summoners have their pets tank?

[HimuraKenshyn]

Blood Pacts, Retreat, and Release do not generate enmity, and as such were not included in the list.

ORLY something is really bugged then in my book....