Will RNF benefit from current Magian Trials?

[Horadrim]

The Water Path in Magians grants a GS that stands at 123 DMG with MND+11 with MDEF +13 on it, which would greatly support it out of the gate for players to start with, though their comment about how they don't plan to add the new jobs to Emp Weapons has me wondering about how they're gonna handle the other trials.

They'll be adding new Empy weapons for those jobs, if anything. Just like they didn't add BLU, PUP, DNC, or SCH to Relic weapons and they added unique ones for them later. Unless you get RNF and GEO empy from Adoulin (which would mean they'd have to add an additional event and gear for all jobs to get from it similar something beyond Empy) I'm pretty sure they'll get unique gear and paths.

[Tamarsamar]

They'll be adding new Empy weapons for those jobs, if anything. Just like they didn't add BLU, PUP, DNC, or SCH to Relic weapons and they added unique ones for them later. Unless you get RNF and GEO empy from Adoulin (which would mean they'd have to add an additional event and gear for all jobs to get from it similar something beyond Empy) I'm pretty sure they'll get unique gear and paths.

I just want to point out from a game design perspective how completely short-sighted this is. Just as nobody at SE has heard of Occam's Razor, nobody at SE also seems to be familiar with the concept of conservation of resources (or if someone was, they were likely thrown out of a window at a meeting).

Players like denser content. They like what they've done before being potentially applicable for future endeavors. They're not so fond of a whole new set of ultimate weapons being added just to accommodate for newer jobs, since apparently adding newer jobs to existing content would apparently shatter whatever perverted perceptions of "balance" you may have.

How's this for balance, SE: an older job has access to at least three, if not more different ultimate weapons to choose from. Anything from ToAU forward has only two. And you plan to give SoA jobs only Mythic Weapons? Oh, but you hope to make it better by introducing a whole other set of ultimate weapons that SoA jobs are included on, so that older jobs have 4+ such choices, ToAU and WotG have 3 choices, and SoA jobs still have only 2. [SARCASM]Good going, SE. That's how you balance a game.[/SARCASM]

/vent

[Horadrim]

I just want to point out from a game design perspective how completely short-sighted this is. Just as nobody at SE has heard of Occam's Razor, nobody at SE also seems to be familiar with the concept of conservation of resources (or if someone was, they were likely thrown out of a window at a meeting).

Players like denser content. They like what they've done before being potentially applicable for future endeavors. They're not so fond of a whole new set of ultimate weapons being added just to accommodate for newer jobs, since apparently adding newer jobs to existing content would apparently shatter whatever perverted perceptions of "balance" you may have.

How's this for balance, SE: an older job has access to at least three, if not more different ultimate weapons to choose from. Anything from ToAU forward has only two. And you plan to give SoA jobs only Mythic Weapons? Oh, but you hope to make it better by introducing a whole other set of ultimate weapons that SoA jobs are included on, so that older jobs have 4+ such choices, ToAU and WotG have 3 choices, and SoA jobs still have only 2. [SARCASM]Good going, SE. That's how you balance a game.[/SARCASM]

/vent

I think the issue comes in from a rebalancing perspective - it's one of those things where you just don't want to have a piece of gear that has stats all over the place. If you look at what RNF is supposed to be versus what jobs that use similar weapons (G.Swords, so DRK and WAR) the purpose of the jobs is completely different. Sure WAR -can- tank, but its not so often that you see them equipping Great Swords to do it. DRK and G.Sword WAR are 100% about damage, meaning that most G.Swords are damage focused and suddenly tossing Defensive stats and boons on them could have weird overlaps for other jobs. They did go back and give old jobs an equivalent number of items and options -- but they ended up coming from different places. Jobs that directly overlapped, like SCH, ended up with less of a divide but frankly I kind of understand why they do it the way they do.

At the end of the day it balances out (gear count wise, you can barely tell the difference between ToAU jobs and Zilart jobs these days), but it did take them a while to get caught up while SE was figuring out where the balance goes.

Say what you will about how slowly and stubbornly they do things, but they do try to incorporate player tendencies into their balancing of some things (they're doing it more and more with FFXIV) so seeing them wait a bit before adding endgame gear to assess how players use jobs and focus on those stats makes sense.

Meanwhile, I think extra, unique magian trials makes sense and adding new Empy gear is very likely to happen as well.

To any extent, I'm not a fan of it either. I like having a long list of things to work on with a clear line of progression I can make. When I first leveled BLU I hit 60+ before AF had even been released and the rush to get it cost me over 6 million gil prior to SE adding easier ways to get Imperial Silk. Later, I hate to wait around for them to add SCH relic to Dynamis so I could try and get that. I'd very much like to see SoA come out and RNF/GEO having a full 3 sets of endgame gear and 3-5 different end game weapon options...

It's just not likely to happen.

[Delvish]

To any extent, I'm not a fan of it either. I like having a long list of things to work on with a clear line of progression I can make. When I first leveled BLU I hit 60+ before AF had even been released and the rush to get it cost me over 6 million gil prior to SE adding easier ways to get Imperial Silk. Later, I hate to wait around for them to add SCH relic to Dynamis so I could try and get that. I'd very much like to see SoA come out and RNF/GEO having a full 3 sets of endgame gear and 3-5 different end game weapon options...

It's just not likely to happen.

I was actually going to mention the delay that came with the newer jobs and their AF/Relic equivalents. It seemed to me SE runs the jobs through a mass beta just to see how we play them, then add stats/bonuses to the gear based upon those findings. I can only speak for SCH personally, but I find myself using over 60% of my AF/Relic gear simply because it all has a niche use I use frequently, while 60% of my other pre-TOAU AF/Relic armor is in storage because it doesn't have a use, often including the +2 relics w/ augments.

[Tamarsamar]

At the end of the day it balances out (gear count wise, you can barely tell the difference between ToAU jobs and Zilart jobs these days), but it did take them a while to get caught up while SE was figuring out where the balance goes.

This is where you're mistaken. SE still stubbornly refuses to give ToAU-forward jobs access to Relic Weapons, and a statement they made suggests that they intend to not only not let Geomancer or Rune Fencer have Relic Weapons either, but not even Empyrean Weapons! This matter is what I was specifically referring to.

[Horadrim]

This is where you're mistaken. SE still stubbornly refuses to give ToAU-forward jobs access to Relic Weapons, and a statement they made suggests that they intend to not only not let Geomancer or Rune Fencer have Relic Weapons either, but not even Empyrean Weapons! This matter is what I was specifically referring to.

While GEO and RNF not getting Empy troubles me... I don't really think not giving ToAU jobs Relic weapons was that huge of a thing. That's just my opinion though.

Either way, there's not much that can be done about it if that's the route they decide to go.

GE- How will the new jobs play into current relic, mythic and empyrean weapons? Is it safe to assume that they’ll have relic and empyrean armor as well?

SE- Rune fencers and geomancers will have Artifact equipment, Artifact weapons, Relic Equipment, Empyrean equipment, and Mythic weapons.

What about this...? Relic weapons and Empyrean weapons aren't specified but you also have to consider that "Relic weapons" aren't really the same thing when compared to Relic armor as Empyrean weapons are in relation to one another... Almace for example takes a completely different level of commitment and investment than Excalibur that, for example, Paladin's Valor set isn't even remotely related to. Additionally, considering you can build Empy weapons as opposed to having to journey back to Dynamis to farm for the stuff to make them I think the biggest issue SE has with adding new jobs to Relics is how exclusionary it feels.

Frankly... at the end of the day -- why the hell would we need that many different options in the weapon department? I know for DRG, for example, the Rhongomiant is considered more or less the best weapon for them according to DRG99's I've talked to since starting the job. Sure if you have Gungnir and 99 it, it's great but from what I've been told whichever one you use is prioritized by straight superiority followed by however lazy you want to be about it. I thought you meant they weren't going to get any of those gear options at all, but if we're dealing specifically with weapons -- that seems like a bit much to get in a twist over.

[SpankWustler]

I'm hoping the new jobs are on some Magian Trials for some weapons, even though it seems unlikely they'll receive any Empyrean weapons from what the Development Bros have said.

Frankly... at the end of the day -- why the hell would we need that many different options in the weapon department? I know for DRG, for example, the Rhongomiant is considered more or less the best weapon for them according to DRG99's I've talked to since starting the job. Sure if you have Gungnir and 99 it, it's great but from what I've been told whichever one you use is prioritized by straight superiority followed by however lazy you want to be about it. I thought you meant they weren't going to get any of those gear options at all, but if we're dealing specifically with weapons -- that seems like a bit much to get in a twist over.

You actually explain why it is good to have options in the same paragraph that you say it's not that important to have options. Also, I assume you meant "Ryunohige" rather than "Rhongomiant" since the names are similar?

It's important to have options because some ultimate weapons are just slightly better hitting sticks and others are actually well-designed and work well with a particular job. The more options a job has among ultimate weapons, the higher a player's chance of having the option to make a well-designed ultimate weapon for that job will be.

[Horadrim]

I'm hoping the new jobs are on some Magian Trials for some weapons, even though it seems unlikely they'll receive any Empyrean weapons from what the Development Bros have said.



You actually explain why it is good to have options in the same paragraph that you say it's not that important to have options. Also, I assume you meant "Ryunohige" rather than "Rhongomiant" since the names are similar?

It's important to have options because some ultimate weapons are just slightly better hitting sticks and others are actually well-designed and work well with a particular job. The more options a job has among ultimate weapons, the higher a player's chance of having the option to make a well-designed ultimate weapon for that job will be.

Because I was dealing in two different things with regards to options.

Weapons and other gear are completely separate in this regard. You can have TP sets, WS sets, JA sets on you and actively switch between them -- different gear has different uses and purposes so options are a useful and important thing as long as one piece isn't just a direct upgrade of another piece.

Meanwhile, Weapons are a completely different monster. Outside of mages, who's casting isn't effected by switching weapons (and still, it isn't really necessary anymore with the fused HQ staff, unless you build magian elemental staves),

With regards to the DRG thing -- I don't know (looking it up now) I'm just going by what I remember reading, the specifics are largely irrelevant to the point of what I was saying though. With weapons, it is almost always a case of direct upgrading as opposed to lateral usefulness:

This clearly better than this and a roughly lateral move from this -- yet the comparative difficulty of building a Gungnir compared to a Ryunohige or Rhongomiant is pretty ridiculous.

When you're dealing with slots where you can actively change swap gear around during combat, options make a ton of sense and become great. But as I specified before -- Weapons are a completely different thing and if you look at most of the weapons in the game, there's a clear hierarchy of potency that makes it redundant to hassle over adding new jobs to older ones -- like the dynamis relic weapons...

[Metaking]

While GEO and RNF not getting Empy troubles me... I don't really think not giving ToAU jobs Relic weapons was that huge of a thing. That's just my opinion though.

.

dont let a dnc hear you say that, and as a blu, i can tell you with the addition of req not being able to use excal hurts even more. cors you know probly dont care about relic gun, doesn't do much for them, and pup... well i can kinda understand them not getting relic knuckles but no real reason blu and dnc should not have.

on to geo it uses clubs... i don't think the relic club much less then emp club is going to break the game for any job >.> and no info on rune to really make a call

[ManaKing]

dont let a dnc hear you say that, and as a blu, i can tell you with the addition of req not being able to use excal hurts even more. cors you know probly dont care about relic gun, doesn't do much for them, and pup... well i can kinda understand them not getting relic knuckles but no real reason blu and dnc should not have.

on to geo it uses clubs... i don't think the relic club much less then emp club is going to break the game for any job >.> and no info on rune to really make a call

As a RDM with an Excal and an Almace, I can say at least you can use CDC properly and the ODD goes to your Blue Magic. I mean, that's what every mage has access to, right? ODD for their magic? Oh wait, no that's specially reserved for BLU with an Almace. How about all those traits you can set? Those aren't a big deal either, right? Everyone has access to Dual Wield 3 and Triple attack. Oh wait, only THFs do and they get to use Daggers. Self Skill Chaining is no big deal either. How about your shadows? How many of them do you get again? Like 2 right? Just like Blink right? Definitely not more than NIN or anything.

/walks through BLU tears without caring

You can go /WAR and get access to Morrigan's +1. If you can't figure out how to use Req well then that's your problem.

That being said, DNC should be on Mandau. They aren't overpowered and they are working with Daggers. They actually have legitimate grievances. There is nothing wrong with jobs being individually given things, but BLU isn't even close to being poorly off. I don't know why you complain as much as RDMs when you clearly are the more viable job.

I hope that the current Dev team has the over sight to give Rune Fencer enough gear at release so that they don't have to play the catch up game. It's also possible that we will get another step in magian trials or a different system with the expansion.

Not being on Ragnarok and Calabolg doesn't offend me so long as they give Rune Fencers access to something good enough to make people not miss them. Obviously some people will complain regardless of the situation and you can't make everyone happy, but I hope they make the job good enough so that people play it for more than the first week that the expansion is out.