Why not? My PLD fix-it thread

[Chocobits]

You don't understand how the current mechanics of enmity are implemented, specifically the relationship between CE and VE. Bumping the hate "cap" up does absolutely nothing, it just takes one more WS to cap it and I ws once every ~7s with full buffs. What's breaking the system is the sheer amount of hate that damage generates, the number is so large that it instantly dwarfs all other "tools". A PLD wearing full DD gear spamming resolution would hold hate infinitely better then one turtled up with sword + board. During the last few years before abysesa PLD's had started to learn that more damage = more hate and would use hybrid gear sets focused on haste.

Now after your at the hate cap the monster attacks whomever hit it last, a melee under full buffs is swinging so fast that the probability of the PLD being the last to hit the monster when it's enmity value is checked again is very low. Thus even implementing ALL those changes you would accomplish absolutely nothing, the core problem isn't solved and we're still zerging. In fact because the healers are now generating a sh!t ton more hate your now having them cap out CE insanely fast and once their capped they'll be eligible to be "it" when the monster's enmity is recalculated. When the monster does an area of effect move it will reduce the CE value of everyone within range, the NM will then momentarily target the healer who was out of range and had capped TE.

To give you an idea of the vast different between "hate tools" and a single Weaponskill.

Cap is 20000 TE divided into two categories. VE goes down at the rate of 60 per second, CE only goes down when your hit or a THF use's hate JA.

Individual caps are
10000 VE
10000 CE

Provoke: 1 CE 1800 VE
Flash: 180 CE 1280 VE
Shield Bash: 1 CE 900 VE
Sentinel: 1 CE 1800 VE
Invincible: 1 CE 7200 VE

Cure enmity actually goes down as the target's level goes up.
Level 50: CE = Cure * 1.0, VE = Cure * 6.0
Level 75: CE = Cure * 0.727, VE = Cure * 4.36
Level 99: CE = Cure * 0.59, VE = Cure * 3.58 (extrapolated from Kanican's chart)
So a 700 Cure IV will generate 508 CE and 3052 VE

Now for damage, the multiplier goes down as the target's level goes up.
Level 50: CE = Damage * 2.162, VE = Damage * 6.49
Level 75: CE = Damage * 1.538, VE = Damage * 4.62
Level 99: CE = Damage * 1.07, VE = Damage * 3.5

Now how much has our damage gone up since level 50, then again since level 75? It's gone up by a value much greater then the reduction in CE/VE multiplier

A 3000 point WS (very conservative) will give you
3210 CE, 10500 VE (capped at 10000)

A super buffed DD can do that every 7~9s (if their not they need to turn off the TV and pay attention) which gives you 3~4 WS's within a single 30s period of time, once melee damage is added your capping CE / TE within two WS's.

Heck just smacking the monster (absolutely no WS's) gives you capped hate. At 200 damage per swing (again very conservative) your getting 214 CE and 700 VE for every swing. With capped haste I'm at once swing per 87 delay or 1.45s. That's 20.7s to cap VE and 67.7s to cap CE. Slightly over one minute of only melee is capped hate, and that's not counting things like goading belt or QA,TA,DA procs.

Are you now clear on the sheer magnitude of difference between damage and "everything else" for hate generation. Nothing short of a taunt mechanic or a dramatic nerfing of damage hate (and corresponding nerf to cure hate) will ever allow a non-damage oriented tank to tank.

So yes you know nearly nothing about the current hate system other then the ignorant cry of "ITS BROKE HERE IS MY UNINFORMED IDEA!!!"

I did specifically mention that hate values for damage dealt need to be revisited.. it was right alongside the raising the hate cap, and the raising the values for cure enmity.... so yes, I have a very healthy understanding of everything you just said... but it's ok, nobody is good at everything, and reading is not everyone's forte. Raising the enmity caps by themselves would do absolutely nothing.. but in conjunction with adjusting values for specific actions, it goes a long way. Job abilities and cures need a much higher value and damage needs a much lower value. Thank you for reaffirming what I said twice in this very thread!!!!!!!! You're agreeing with me at the same time that you're taunting me... lame!

*Edit* I could have summarized my "limited" understanding of enmity in a couple sentences, and much more concisely than your somewhat long winded tirade:

Damage values > JA and Cure values
CE is static enmity, VE decays
CE is only lost from taking damage or from enmity transfer (THF isn't the only job that can do this, shock!)

I don't think your cure hate values are taking into consideration.. things like enmity reduction gear and traits...? WHM has them. PLD doesn't. Because of these, and the fact that WHM are using Cure V and topping off with Cure III.. they aren't using Cure IV hardly at all except as a backup because of enmity/MP inefficiency. So they aren't capping out enmity at nearly the pace you suggest.. And as you eloquently pointed out, THF has enmity transfer tools.. and you have them in for TH if nothing else on anything that isn't a loot box drop

I didn't mention specific values or go into explanation about any of the above because.. I figured we're all big kids now and all of this goes without saying...?

So yes, by way of this post, we see who is the student and who is the master. Come back some time and get schooled again! I have enjoyed it.

[Economizer]

Quoting an entire comment and then complaining about a wall of text seems painfully out of place with each other.

I don't think your cure hate values are taking into consideration.. things like enmity reduction gear and traits...? WHM has them. PLD doesn't. Because of these, and the fact that WHM are using Cure V and topping off with Cure III.. they aren't using Cure IV hardly at all except as a backup because of enmity/MP inefficiency. So they aren't capping out enmity at nearly the pace you suggest..

You either don't play White Mage or you don't know the numbers behind curing on White Mage. Now at least you didn't suggest White Mages are spamming Cure VI, but Cure IV is the go to cure spell currently.

Go take a gander at the Cure Formula Changes thread. Now, even despite not adjusting for the WHM AF3+2 pants (if you're not casting in these you're doing it wrong), you could just plug in some basic numbers into Furen's Cure Calculator (which has been updated thanks to the testing done in the Cure Formula Changes thread), you will be able to see that Cure III/IV are way more efficient then Cure V, and cure for enough to primarily spam between Cure III/IV in most situations. The numbers grow even further apart when you calculate for the AF3+2 pants.

Granted, if enmity changed in a fashion that casting Cure III/IV is hazardous, we could see a situation where White Mages will no longer be using just their sufficient and MP efficient spells, but these situations would also favor against White Mage's current advantages it holds now in curing, which is the huge margin of MP efficiency, the inclusion of AoE cures, and even to some extent the cureskin effect (Cure VI doesn't get the full effects, so if it is regularly forced for the reduced enmity, the benefits of cureskin will be diminished).

Getting back to the point here however, Cure IV can cure for ~850+ and Cure III heals for ~450+ from any decent White Mage, with numbers very close from any Red Mage, and higher numbers from any Scholar (Aurorastorm). In the vast majority of situations you'll be able to go between Cure III/IV, and most situations not covered by this are covered by busting out even more efficient Curaga spells.

And as you eloquently pointed out, THF has enmity transfer tools.. and you have them in for TH if nothing else on anything that isn't a loot box drop

All THF can do is move enmity onto itself with Accomplice/Collaborator. Trick Attack doesn't transfer any enmity, just the enmity from the damage spike it creates.

[Chocobits]

Quoting an entire comment and then complaining about a wall of text seems painfully out of place with each other.

Fair enough.

As to the rest - sigh... we're obviously talking post-adjustment on the Cure IV... and obviously we aren't talking about Trick Attack for THF regarding WHM.... we're still dealing in "it goes with saying but I'm saying it anyways in the possibility you're somehow wrong" isms. I like contributions, I really do.. but really...? Do I need to state after every post that the scenarios I type out are obviously post-whatever-adjustments-I've-just-suggested...? And the need to attack me with comments like "u ubvoosly dun play gaem as heelrar" based on me not stating the obvious for every post?

Sheesh. Please also tell me to include a cure potency staff while I am at it! I obviously need to have my hand held!

I do acknowledge you could misinterpret my remark about Cure IV.. It goes through phases and in the past it was numerically not an efficient or wise spell to repeatedly cast due to the ridiculously low amount of cure potency we were given. That is no longer the case.. but a simple "You meant post-whatever-suggestions-you-just-mentioned right?" Instead of another small novel that only serves to reaffirm what I am already saying! Also, take into consideration that with the adjustments I suggested.. some cure potency might need to be sacrificed in order to get a decent -enmity value on our gear... So yes, Cure IV would go out of style with cure enmity values adjusted per my suggestions...! And it's not like we don't have refresh up the wazoo.. I didn't have a difficult time using Cure V back at 75 cap.. I don't see it being a problem at 99 cap..?

I know I am a genius but I feel like I am teaching the English alphabet to handicapped immigrants here. Am I really thinking at such a higher level that my meagerest afterthoughts are so profound they need clarification/reiteration at every phase?!

[Zagen]

I know I am a genius but I feel like I am teaching the English alphabet to handicapped immigrants here. Am I really thinking at such a higher level that my meagerest afterthoughts are so profound they need clarification/reiteration at every phase?!

This reminds me of a saying "There's a fine line between genius and insanity." I don't think you're on the side you think you are.