Why not? My PLD fix-it thread

[Chocobits]

You don't understand how the current mechanics of enmity are implemented, specifically the relationship between CE and VE. Bumping the hate "cap" up does absolutely nothing, it just takes one more WS to cap it and I ws once every ~7s with full buffs. What's breaking the system is the sheer amount of hate that damage generates, the number is so large that it instantly dwarfs all other "tools". A PLD wearing full DD gear spamming resolution would hold hate infinitely better then one turtled up with sword + board. During the last few years before abysesa PLD's had started to learn that more damage = more hate and would use hybrid gear sets focused on haste.

Now after your at the hate cap the monster attacks whomever hit it last, a melee under full buffs is swinging so fast that the probability of the PLD being the last to hit the monster when it's enmity value is checked again is very low. Thus even implementing ALL those changes you would accomplish absolutely nothing, the core problem isn't solved and we're still zerging. In fact because the healers are now generating a sh!t ton more hate your now having them cap out CE insanely fast and once their capped they'll be eligible to be "it" when the monster's enmity is recalculated. When the monster does an area of effect move it will reduce the CE value of everyone within range, the NM will then momentarily target the healer who was out of range and had capped TE.

To give you an idea of the vast different between "hate tools" and a single Weaponskill.

Cap is 20000 TE divided into two categories. VE goes down at the rate of 60 per second, CE only goes down when your hit or a THF use's hate JA.

Individual caps are
10000 VE
10000 CE

Provoke: 1 CE 1800 VE
Flash: 180 CE 1280 VE
Shield Bash: 1 CE 900 VE
Sentinel: 1 CE 1800 VE
Invincible: 1 CE 7200 VE

Cure enmity actually goes down as the target's level goes up.
Level 50: CE = Cure * 1.0, VE = Cure * 6.0
Level 75: CE = Cure * 0.727, VE = Cure * 4.36
Level 99: CE = Cure * 0.59, VE = Cure * 3.58 (extrapolated from Kanican's chart)
So a 700 Cure IV will generate 508 CE and 3052 VE

Now for damage, the multiplier goes down as the target's level goes up.
Level 50: CE = Damage * 2.162, VE = Damage * 6.49
Level 75: CE = Damage * 1.538, VE = Damage * 4.62
Level 99: CE = Damage * 1.07, VE = Damage * 3.5

Now how much has our damage gone up since level 50, then again since level 75? It's gone up by a value much greater then the reduction in CE/VE multiplier

A 3000 point WS (very conservative) will give you
3210 CE, 10500 VE (capped at 10000)

A super buffed DD can do that every 7~9s (if their not they need to turn off the TV and pay attention) which gives you 3~4 WS's within a single 30s period of time, once melee damage is added your capping CE / TE within two WS's.

Heck just smacking the monster (absolutely no WS's) gives you capped hate. At 200 damage per swing (again very conservative) your getting 214 CE and 700 VE for every swing. With capped haste I'm at once swing per 87 delay or 1.45s. That's 20.7s to cap VE and 67.7s to cap CE. Slightly over one minute of only melee is capped hate, and that's not counting things like goading belt or QA,TA,DA procs.

Are you now clear on the sheer magnitude of difference between damage and "everything else" for hate generation. Nothing short of a taunt mechanic or a dramatic nerfing of damage hate (and corresponding nerf to cure hate) will ever allow a non-damage oriented tank to tank.

So yes you know nearly nothing about the current hate system other then the ignorant cry of "ITS BROKE HERE IS MY UNINFORMED IDEA!!!"

I did specifically mention that hate values for damage dealt need to be revisited.. it was right alongside the raising the hate cap, and the raising the values for cure enmity.... so yes, I have a very healthy understanding of everything you just said... but it's ok, nobody is good at everything, and reading is not everyone's forte. Raising the enmity caps by themselves would do absolutely nothing.. but in conjunction with adjusting values for specific actions, it goes a long way. Job abilities and cures need a much higher value and damage needs a much lower value. Thank you for reaffirming what I said twice in this very thread!!!!!!!! You're agreeing with me at the same time that you're taunting me... lame!

*Edit* I could have summarized my "limited" understanding of enmity in a couple sentences, and much more concisely than your somewhat long winded tirade:

Damage values > JA and Cure values
CE is static enmity, VE decays
CE is only lost from taking damage or from enmity transfer (THF isn't the only job that can do this, shock!)

I don't think your cure hate values are taking into consideration.. things like enmity reduction gear and traits...? WHM has them. PLD doesn't. Because of these, and the fact that WHM are using Cure V and topping off with Cure III.. they aren't using Cure IV hardly at all except as a backup because of enmity/MP inefficiency. So they aren't capping out enmity at nearly the pace you suggest.. And as you eloquently pointed out, THF has enmity transfer tools.. and you have them in for TH if nothing else on anything that isn't a loot box drop

I didn't mention specific values or go into explanation about any of the above because.. I figured we're all big kids now and all of this goes without saying...?

So yes, by way of this post, we see who is the student and who is the master. Come back some time and get schooled again! I have enjoyed it.