Enough is enough

[Arcon]

Unless you can somehow link the two together (such as providing numbers showing that the decline in population increased shortly after Abyssea), then this is not evidence, it's coincidence.

If I could, I would have done so in the beginning. If I could, I also wouldn't have said that I couldn't. If I wanted to actually make that argument, I would have. The reason I haven't (and I'm not sure why you think that I did) is precisely because I lack that information. Also, evidence can be coincidence. That's decided after it is presented and does not stop it being evidence, it only makes that evidence irrelevant. That is decided after it was interpreted and discussed. But don't worry, I will not explain what evidence is again. If you didn't get it after three explanations, I doubt you'll get it after a fourth, even if it might stop you from making bad analogies.

I believe Abyssea was bad for the game, for a list of reasons, and not all of them were bad for me. I cannot prove any of them, which is why I didn't pretend to do so, although I have good arguments for all of them, but this is not the place to discuss it. If you wanna open a new Abyssea discussion thread, I'll be happy to present them.

If a scientist wants to prove that McDonald's has led to a sizable population increase, he would be laughed at if his only piece of "evidence" was the total human population before and after McDonald's.

By people like you, I'm sure. Other scientist would scoff at you for not listening to that guy's arguments, such as cities being merged shortly after a McDonald's restaurant opened in them, or the fact that fatty and unhealthy food becoming immensely popular should slow down the population growth, not accelerate it.

[Jaall]

(and I'm not sure why you think that I did)

Because you were trying so hard to argue every point he made using pointless definitions and dead end points. There would be absolutely no hard evidence with the McDonald example and even scientists would laugh at that because it is merely coincidence. If one mad scientist wanted to go and further prove that theory I'm sure the others would allow that but they would still think it's stupid. You're trying to win an argument when there is literally no real way you can because the facts are facts and all you have left is to define silly things and say "if" a lot, also you seem to have an undying hatred for Abyssea. If I may I'd like to suggest moving on, Abyssea is implemented, you can't turn back time. Most you can do is accept it and tbh the majority do accept it and the majority like it. You're fighting a losing battle here in a thread that has nothing to do with Abyssea anyway.

[Arcon]

Because you were trying so hard to argue every point he made using pointless definitions and dead end points.

What points did he make? Seriously, tell me, if you know.

There would be absolutely no hard evidence with the McDonald example [..]

Of course, because it's a failed analogy. And I already explained why.

You're trying to win an argument [..]

I'm not. I explicitely stated that I can't, because I don't have proof.

Most you can do is accept it and tbh the majority do accept it and the majority like it.

Assumption without any evidence. That was the only point I was trying to make.

You're fighting a losing battle here in a thread that has nothing to do with Abyssea anyway.

You can't lose when you're right, regardless who agrees or disagrees.

[Zagen]

Of course, because it's a failed analogy. And I already explained why.

You mean the part where you added on to it thus changing the analogy?

You can't lose when you're right, regardless who agrees or disagrees.

Are you familiar with history? It's full of people who were right and still lost.

You're arguing Abyssea pushed people away without evidence (which you've admitted to) proving that was the sole reason. Everyone I know that "quit because of Abyssea" were people that had grown tired of the game and Abyssea was the straw that broke the camel's back, not the sole reason for them quitting. I can state factually at the time of it's release it was the sole reason for keeping 4 players (myself being one of them) from quitting.

[Arcon]

You mean the part where you added on to it thus changing the analogy?

The part his analogy missed, which is why it was a failed analogy. An analogy is supposed to accurately reflect the issue at hand, which his didn't.

Are you familiar with history? It's full of people who were right and still lost.

We have a different definition of losing. What do you think will happen to me if I lose? Will a mob come find me and silence me? How do you think I can lose in this?

You're arguing Abyssea pushed people away without evidence (which you've admitted to) proving that was the sole reason.

No, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that there's evidence supporting that, and that there's no evidence supporting the contrary.

[Jaall]

No, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that there's evidence supporting that, and that there's no evidence supporting the contrary.

I'd like to know what you think is evidence for people leaving due to Abyssea, please inform us with thy gracious wisdom. Also I'd like actual evidence please and not just speculation or opinion because that seems to be the point you're trying to make even if it is pointless to do so. My point is there is no evidence only speculation and opinion, of which mine are the opposite to yours and I've explained why, but you have yet to explain so here's your chance to prove yourself.

[Yinnyth]

You're arguing Abyssea pushed people away without evidence (which you've admitted to) proving that was the sole reason.

Actually, the biggest thing I resent is that he's not willing to give up that term "evidence" when it comes to declining server populations. To date, he has maintained that this statistic is evidence, while refusing to give that status to any other information pertaining to this topic.

[Yinnyth]

If I could, I would have done so in the beginning. If I could, I also wouldn't have said that I couldn't. If I wanted to actually make that argument, I would have. The reason I haven't (and I'm not sure why you think that I did) is precisely because I lack that information. Also, evidence can be coincidence.

You dismiss all coincidence which supports Abyssea being good for the game as:

That's precisely what I meant. No evidence to support that statement, just dubious and unsupported quantifications like "many think" or "most prefer" and things like that.

In fact, according to you:

Which is, again, precisely what I said. We can't prove anything either way. But since the only evidence we have is pointing to the opposite

You elevate trends which were set in motion years before Abyssea was a twinkle in Altana's eyes as "evidence". But anything which runs contrary to your current belief does not deserve that moniker.

In case I have not been clear enough about this, the thing I resent is not your viewpoint, it's your delivery of that viewpoint. You are attempting to monopolize the term "evidence" as anything which supports your beliefs, when in truth, declining server population does NOTHING to diminish the burden of proving that Abyssea was bad for the game. If it does not advance the claim, it is not evidence, and declining server populations do nothing to advance your claim.

[Arcon]

You dismiss all coincidence which supports Abyssea being good for the game as:

I dismiss statements that are unquantified and unqualified. We know that population declined. We do not know that "many think" and "most prefer". That is something that people who don't have any proper arguments or do not know how to use their arguments properly say.

[Yinnyth]

I dismiss statements that are unquantified and unqualified.

What are your qualifications for deciding which statements are quantified and qualified?(ironic statement, not meant to be taken seriously) It is widely accepted that server populations have been in decline for years before Abyssea, during Abyssea, and after Abyssea. It is also widely accepted that Abyssea was wildly popular (did you ever run a /sea of Abyssea zones when they were freshly released? Crazy crowded.) Why is one widely accepted fact "evidence" and the other is "coincidence"?

Edit: Player decline is also:

1. Unquantified, because we don't have the exact numbers.
2. Unqualified, because it has not yet been successfully linked to Abyssea, and you yourself have admitted that it cannot be linked to Abyssea.

Yet you have not dismissed it the same way you have dismissed other statements.