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  1. #1
    Player Hashmalum's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Character
    Hashmalum
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99

    WHM's current problems, and how to solve them

    WHM is a overall not in bad shape, but even so, we still have some problems. These problems fall into three categories, which I will outline below, and then follow with suggested improvements.

    1. Status prevention is useless
    With numerous Barstatusra spells, Barelementra spells that improve status resist rates, Divine Caress, and an upcoming two hour one hour ability that's supposed to prevent status anomalies, this is clearly supposed to be a major area of competence for WHM. However, between unpreventable status auras becoming commonplace, the fact that Barstatus spells don't seem to do anything, and many status anomalies don't have element and/or status spells that would prevent them even if you know they are coming, many WHMs don't even bother. Suggestions:
    • Add a status potency down effect to Barstatus spell effects--Poison status deals less damage per tick, Doom counts start out higher, stat downs are lessened, etc. With this in place, even if the status lands it will at least be noticeable that the spell is doing something. Even if auras are unpreventable they should be able to have their potency mitigated with the proper precautions.
    • Give WHM more elemental Barspells, Bardarkra at the least. Many annoying statuses and effects such as Sleep, Curse, and Dispelga are dark based, but without a Barspell for darkness it's not reasonably possible to get enough dark resistance for it to make a difference.
    • Give WHM more (functional!) Barstatus spells, Bardispelra at the least. Remember that one of the factors behind Embrava dependence is that it is the only performance buff that can't be dispelled.
    2. Status removal is lagging behind severely
    Mob TP moves these days are all AoE, and most have at least one status effect each. Heck, even many normal attacks are AoE with a status. Many incurable status effects are in common use, including versions of old ailments that have become inexplicably resistant to common treatment. And then, there's the aura problem (again!), which pointlessly chews up "cure one ailment only" spells like Erase. Ever try to Erase a simple Slow in a Bio aura, only to have Erase get rid of Bio three times in a row--only to have it come back on the next tick?
    • Instead of having aura statuses be removable but coming right back, make aura statuses not eligible for removal, period. When an effect such as Erase is randomly choosing what status on the target to remove, exclude aura statuses completely. I.e. if a target has Slow, and Bio from an aura, Slow should always be chosen to be erased no matter what. If the only eligible statuses to remove are aura statuses, it should give an appropriate message, so the player won't waste their time trying to remove auras. Much like how we now no longer need to try casting an enfeeble again when we see a "completely resists" message.
    • Either add Erase II and Esuna II that remove more statuses at a time, or scale the number of statuses removed to Healing magic skill.
    3. Afflatus: Misery sucks
    And we all know it. Improvements?
    • Just make Afflatus: Misery boost Curas/Banishes based on the highest damage taken, not the last damage taken already, FOR GOD'S SAKE. It's such a vital fix, yet also so simple. How long must we wait?
    • For a supposedly melee-oriented stance, Afflatus: Misery does nothing to mitigate casting load (like Composure does). Enhancement spells cast while Afflatus: Misery is in effect should have an extended duration. The duration on Auspice in particular is just amazingly bad.
    (7)
    Last edited by Hashmalum; 01-17-2013 at 07:59 PM. Reason: bolded key parts of suggestions

  2. #2
    Player Sarick's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    732
    Character
    Saricks
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    It'd be a good idea to make most of the AOE buffs not self only cast. The problems with I see with auspice, protectra, shellra and barspellgas etc. are that they need the whm to rush into harms way to cast them. Curaga and a few others center around the target why can't buffs?

    If a lot of these spells weren't self only then it'd be easier to stand back as a mage instead of inside the AOE areas. WHM isn't a bard singing. :P
    (3)
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  3. #3
    Player Caketime's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    654
    Character
    Anonymous
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Misery definitely needs something to make it more worth using. Or maybe it's just that Solace is so good it makes Misery look like garbage by comparison? Cureskin is pretty tough to beat.
    (3)

  4. #4
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    1,397
    Character
    Thelaughingman
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmalum View Post
    WHM is a overall not in bad shape, but even so, we still have some problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmalum View Post
    • Add a status potency down effect to Barstatus spell effects--Poison status deals less damage per tick, Doom counts start out higher, stat downs are lessened, etc. With this in place, even if the status lands it will at least be noticeable that the spell is doing something. Even if auras are unpreventable they should be able to have their potency mitigated with the proper precautions.
    Preventing status ailments in the first place is always preferable, but for some reason this generally gets deemed as very powerful even in cases where the White Mage can remove the effect quite easily.

    Making Barstatus spells work to reduce potency on enfeebles seems particularly sensible if preventing them outright is out of the question. I think this could be a very good "middle way" that SE could hand out if they don't want to improve the likelihood of resistance with these spells.

    For existing barspells, perhaps they could work somewhat as follows (suggestions have no regards to implementation difficulty, just rough ideas):
    • Barpoisonra could work as stated, or alternatively have a chance each round to prevent damage over time effects on the player from procing. Effects would be more potent with more skill.
    • Barvira would work similarly to Barpoisonra's new effects, allowing /heal to proc with tics occasionally for Diseased players, but more importantly players with Plague will find the effects dampened. Effects would be more potent with skill.
    • Barsleepra would have a decent chance at reducing hypersleep effects to regular sleep, and perhaps make it so that actions on the player that normally wouldn't wake them up would have a chance at waking the player, such as using Erase, Paralyna and other debuff removal spells. Effects would be more potent with more skill.
    • Barsilencera would have a chance at making it so that removal effects could remove Mute, much like Cursna has a chance at removing Doom. It could also make Silence effects allow players to try to cast spells, but stop them most of the time while resetting the recast time, allowing players to try to cast spells, albeit with a high rate of failure. Effects would be more potent with more skill.
    • Barpetra could make Break effects have a chance of wearing off when taking damage or getting cured, relative to the amount of damage taking/cured and the user's skill.
    • Barparalyzra could lower the proc rate of Paralyze by an amount relative to skill.
    • Barblindra could lower the accuracy down effect of Blind by an amount relative to skill.
    • Baramnesra is particularly difficult to come up with an idea with since the effect isn't removable by White Mages. It could either keep its current effect of lowering the time the debuff is on the player, or make it possible for Erase to have a slight chance of removal.

    Here are a few ideas for new barstatus spells considering the idea that barstatus spells don't necessarily prevent, but instead help the player cope with the spell.
    • Barcursera to work on lessening the HP/MP down effects of Curse, increase the starting count of Doom, and make curing a player with ST20/Curse (Recovery)/Zombie occasionally heal the player instead of doing nothing. All effects should be proportional to skill of the caster.
    • Barcharmra which could have effects similar to the Lavalier/Lavalier +1's effects, preferably the Gravity effect on Charm, with perhaps an added bonus of waking the player up if they become uncharmed. Alternatively, this could make it so the player becomes uncharmed if they are successfully slept. All effects should be proportional to skill of the caster.
    • Bardeathra which would work by downgrading Death effects used on the target to Doom. The countdown would be based on the skill of the user, with higher skill give players slightly more time to remove Doom.

    All of these should have RDM self-target counterparts naturally.

    Additionally, Divine Caress, while very nice, heavily relies on carrying a pair of mitts that are essentially inventory -1 unless you are for some reason relying on the enmity down stat on them.

    The effect of Divine Caress also doesn't really seem to last long enough on anything but mobs that spam the same ability again and again, and if they spam it so much, you don't really have time to use Divine Caress even when you can use it.

    One thought is that Divine Caress + Barstatus spell could give the Divine Caress prevention effect for the debuff that the Barstatus spell could block, at least on the lower level versions of debuffs.

    Also, Sacrifice and Esuna don't work with Divine Veil effects. This is probably because Esuna is already AoE, and AoE Sacrifice would bog the White Mage down with everyone's debuffs in some situations. But perhaps they could function specially with it, such as having Sacrifice just remove the debuffs instead of transfer them, and Esuna not require any debuffs to remove them. This would mean that when you use Divine Seal then the spell, they'd have the buffed effect, as well as under the effects of Yagrush and occasionally the Orison Cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmalum View Post
    • Give WHM more elemental Barspells, Bardarkra at the least. Many annoying statuses and effects such as Sleep, Curse, and Dispelga are dark based, but without a Barspell for darkness it's not reasonably possible to get enough dark resistance for it to make a difference.
    There are really only two more barelement spells White Mage can get, but yes.

    White Mage needs Barlightra/Bardarkra. While we're at it, Red Mage needs Barlight/Bardark. Ideally they should be sub usable for maximum utility for other classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmalum View Post
    • Give WHM more (functional!) Barstatus spells, Bardispelra at the least. Remember that one of the factors behind Embrava dependence is that it is the only performance buff that can't be dispelled.
    Not to nitpick too heavily, but Light Arts and Dark Arts can't be dispelled either.

    While I'm more partial to other solutions, a sort of dispel lightning rod spell that has multiple charges like Blink or Aquaveil do might be a workable solution, but it could also be hard to implement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmalum View Post
    • Either add Erase II and Esuna II that remove more statuses at a time, or scale the number of statuses removed to Healing magic skill.
    As the above suggestion I gave to make Sacrifice and Esuna work with Divine Veil.

    Additionally, scaling Erase's removal effects based on skill would be nice. It could remove at least one, but remove an extra debuff with every 50~100 skill after 300 skill or some other formula. It wouldn't remove too much, but seeing spells scale with skill is almost always nice.
    (1)
    Last edited by Economizer; 01-18-2013 at 10:36 PM. Reason: Missed one of the LIST tags in the quotes I was using.

  5. #5
    Player Economizer's Avatar
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    Jun 2011
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    Character
    Thelaughingman
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmalum View Post
    3. Afflatus: Misery sucks
    And we all know it. Improvements?
    • Just make Afflatus: Misery boost Curas/Banishes based on the highest damage taken, not the last damage taken already, FOR GOD'S SAKE. It's such a vital fix, yet also so simple. How long must we wait?
    Total damage taken would be better in my opinion, but honestly anything would be better. Taking damage and sitting where you can be hit by debuffs is pretty risky behavior, and it should be rewarded if it is intentionally done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmalum View Post
    • For a supposedly melee-oriented stance, Afflatus: Misery does nothing to mitigate casting load (like Composure does). Enhancement spells cast while Afflatus: Misery is in effect should have an extended duration. The duration on Auspice in particular is just amazingly bad.
    Auspice's duration (which should be increased) aside, I don't really think we should be copying Composure in that way.

    Misery should do something that fits White Mage itself that somehow matches Solace so you're actually tempted to use it outside of Esuna. Misery shouldn't be "ungimp Esuna once every minute" it should be Solace's equal, at very least in situations where you want to be sitting in the fray.

    I'm not even sure that adjusting the damage charge would be enough at this point.

    Part of the problem here is that Banish IV (and if SE wants to spoil us, Banish V) haven't been given to WHM, making the Banish buff not as useful (especially since the damage caps pretty low). White Mage will need these spells for Misery to remain anywhere near competitive with Solace's Holy Laser.

    Another issue is that Cura spells don't match up against Curaga spells in the MP efficiency department anymore (since the pants), since you can just cast a Curaga spell for less MP straight out the gate. To be more competitive with Curaga spells, perhaps the cast time (but not recast) on Cura spells should be reduced further; alternatively all AoE Cure spells could see a casting reduction under Misery.

    A few more loose ends come up as well. We don't really have incredibly clear Auspice numbers, nor is there anyone who particularly wants to test it. There is no gear that buffs Misery, although there is gear that buffs Solace.

    The hard thing here is that Misery sucks so bad that the thing I want to do is drastically buff it, but on the other hand we have to be realistic about what the ability is supposed to be (unless SE's idea was to intentionally have a bad job ability), and try to work with that first before proposing big changes.

    Solace tends to be great at healing, but it also generally excels at dealing with taking damage since it not only buffs barspells for reducing magic damage, but also allows you to prime players with cureskin before they take a big hit. Misery needs its own niche moving forward, and we have to ask ourselves what that is.

    Yeah, a pinch of Job Ability Haste or longer duration buffs would be really nice, but slight adjustments and natural progression that we're long overdue for is what should be tried first.

    On that note, here is a change I think would be too likely to be abused, but I feel like posting here regardless because I put a lot of thought into it:
    One benefit Misery could have could be some sort of ability like Occult Acumen that is tied to curing - the more HP you cure, the more TP you get. This would favor AoE curing, reward the player for not overcuring, and would contrast nicely with cureskin. Additionally it would allow the White Mage to keep casting between weapon skills with less penalty.

    The risk is that Dagan (or Starlight if the White Mage has a Dukkha) might actually prove useful for once, and allow a White Mage to cure with no regards to MP without even hitting the mob. To counter this, I suggest that cures would give a small number such as 1 TP per 200 HP cured, which to abuse would require buffs on a multitude harder to get then a single well equipped Bard (equivalent to having effectively infinite MP).


    I plan on posting another post or two here eventually outlining some more problems White Mage has, debuff prevention/removal and Misery aren't the only things that we could see fixed.
    (3)

  6. #6
    Player Mirage's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Good stuff, Economizer. Plus one from me.
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player Stan64's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    52
    Character
    Goshiwoo
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    The single biggest problems in my opinion is Blinking and Cure Freeze.

    Blinking - People often have gear swaps while they do different attacks and abilities. Why would the cursor leave the person instead of hanging silently in midair while the game blinks them in and out? This actually makes me not Cure or remove statuses from people in time.

    Cure Freeze - If you cure someone who is taking their weapons up or down they will bind on the spot until the animation is over. Will make you loose time in Nyzul Uncharted or Salvage II for example where time is crucial.

    I know some people will say that blinking "can be fixed" with non-approved add-ons. But it still exists on both PS2 and Xbox 360 and bare clients.

    I like to think that this isn't our game and we have to make the most with the rule sets we are given. Challenge the content. But blinking makes no sense. I would understand Cure Freeze if it occurred every time, now it's just to those rare occasions.
    (0)

  8. #8
    Player Mirage's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Actually, most blinking issues are solved with stal, not 3rd party tools.
    (4)

  9. #9
    Player Stan64's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    52
    Character
    Goshiwoo
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    You will still lose focus if you scroll through the players and someone swap their gear. And that's most likely to happen.

    There should not be any blinking issues at all. There is nothing that makes it ok. It's just a nuisance in hectic end game.

    "Oh, the Cerberus Seether brought everyone down to orange except that SAM guy because he had Berserk on and is on red, what a champ, I should heal him with a Cure IV!"
    *press Cure IV-macro*
    *scroll down once, loses focus because the other SAM is skillchaining with himself again...*
    *press Cure IV-macro again*
    *scroll down twice*
    OH HE IS DEAD WHAT DID YOU BELIEVE?

    It's just typical. =D
    (1)
    Last edited by Stan64; 01-19-2013 at 03:44 AM.

  10. #10
    Player Caketime's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Taco Bell
    Posts
    654
    Character
    Anonymous
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirage View Post
    Actually, most blinking issues are solved with stal, not 3rd party tools.
    Workarounds like this one are neat, but don't always help, as the above post points out.
    (0)

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