WHM's current problems, and how to solve them

[Stan64]

Stal works wonders, but you can't be picky with some macros and sometimes you need to choose from list. No Blinking = more freedom!

[Economizer]

White Mage is remarkably similar to Red Mage and Paladin in many ways, all three pretty much share all roles between each other in some fashion or another. The jobs have somewhat similar design and sometimes inspiration from the classical RPG sense, particularly White Mage and Paladin. They also share a lot of very similar problems, so I think that many of the less specific issues I come up with for White Mage will apply to either Red Mage or Paladin, if not both.

In fact, some of the requests I've already stated in this thread (Barspell related) would apply to Red Mage as well. The last major spell formula changes also buffed all three classes (Cure Formula Changes, and the Protect buff). It is slightly drawing off-topic, but I'd like players to remember that these three classes are very intertwined.

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Right now I'll cover White Mage's magic damage.

Admittedly, this is the role I tend to most ignore myself, and I'd guess most players tend to do the same. But having magic damage to fall back on has saved my butt a few times, including a very memorable Chains of Promanthia fight where I was the last party member standing with but one Holy spell to cast.

White Mage is not and will not ever be the most prolific magic damage source, but it is nice to have extra options. Of course, White Mage lacks natural Magic Attack Bonus sources, and the natural sub for parties, Scholar, does too.

We're missing tiers, and the base power on the tiers we have isn't even tier appropriate for the higher tiers, which means that even with the damage bonus against undead is subpar. Undead mobs tend to be immune to Dark Knight and Dancer job abilities in addition to Dark Magic, which limits how often we see them as high level content where Banish would actually be needed. Our cure spells themselves have poor damage against undead, even to the point where they're poorly tested (we literally only got proper numbers after inquiry related in the writing of this post, courtesy of Byrth testing the numbers), and we can't use AoE cure spells on undead mobs. Granted, we're White Mages, but we're White Mages! Wrecking undead mobs is part of the job description, and even on those we tend to do subpar damage.

To top it off, things that would improve a White Mage's magic damage tend to be somewhat lacking, nuking gear tends to be focused on INT based nukes, party based buffs for magic damage are fairly weak, mage food is a complete and utter joke, and Afflatus Misery's buff is based on the last hit making it incredibly hard to utilize.

Here are a few loose ideas for improvement in the field of magic damage for White Mage, although there is probably room for some more solid ideas then these:

• Currently the dev team is working on improving elemental magic damage, these changes should be strongly considered on a case by case basis for all sources of magic damage, particularly Banish spells and offensively cast Cure spells.
  Especially in regards to the casting time of Banish spells (although the recast timers might be specially longer then that of their elemental counterparts), and the effects of stacking dMND for both Banish and offensively used Cure spells.
• Since tier I elemental nukes will have cast speeds faster then Holy and Holy II, consider lowering the cast times on these spells.
• Banish spells need higher tiers. Tier IV is a must, although a tier V should be seriously considered with possible retroactive level adjustments. We should also get relevant AoE tiers to match.
  Paladin should get relevant tiers as White Mage's maximum tier goes up.
• While probably not technically feasible, Curaga spells should ideally be targetable on mobs.
  This might be easier if Curaga spells could be cast on other parties, which could be considered as well.
• Continue to look at party and food buffs to magic damage in general as extra ways to boost magic damage to be competitive with melee damage, and make sure these can apply to sources other then Elemental Magic only.

[Mirage]

I totally agree. We should get banish V at least, and the damage when cast on undeads (and maybe demons too?) should nearly be up there with what blm can do on normal mobs with their equally tiered elemental nukes. Holy and Holy 2 does get boosted by afflatuses, but the damage is really terrible even with that, compared to the MP it uses. I think they should have a damage potential of about 80% of AM and AM2, up to maybe 100% with max afflatus bonuses. If the quick cast is an issue, extend the casting time to let it be more comparable with AM and AM2 instead.

Why is this not overpowered? Even with the same base damage ratings, BLM has access to a more nuking gear, has native MAB traits, can do their maximum damage from spells on a much greater variety of mobs (the only place where WHM would have a chance of getting close would be on undeads), and on top of that, they can rotate between different elements within the same tier when waiting for spell cooldowns to go away (although this isn't as relevant anymore when they implement the planned cast time changes).

In short, giving this to whm would not make them a go-to job for when you need magic damage. blm and sch would still outperform it in that department, so there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to get some nuking love.

[Economizer]

Holy and Holy 2 does get boosted by afflatuses, but the damage is really terrible even with that, compared to the MP it uses. I think they should have a damage potential of about 80% of AM and AM2, up to maybe 100% with max afflatus bonuses. If the quick cast is an issue, extend the casting time to let it be more comparable with AM and AM2 instead.

Part of the issue with adjusting Holy/Holy II in such a way is that we have to remember that Paladin has the spell as well, and uses it right in the face of the mob. They also have Divine Emblem, which greatly boosts the power of the nuke, so just adjusting the base power on Holy/Holy II up.

Additionally, if Holy spells really have an issue with power, SE could always increase the recast time on the spells. As it stands though, I only feel that the spell itself should have a lower casting time to keep with its theme of being an incredibly fast casting spell, and depending on adjustments to Ancient Magic, perhaps better scaling with dMND, or an adjustment similar to what they plan with Ancient Magic spells. This second aspect can wait for those adjustments however.

Personally, I think that if you feel that Holy/Holy II need adjustment, the best way to work on this would be to do it through Afflatus Solace, which would also nicely keep the charged laser feel of the spell for both White Mage and Paladin.

There are two main ways to do this, which I think could both be used in some way.

• Increase the maximum cure charge and damage boost to Holy/Holy II.
  Currently, according to BGwiki, base damage bonus caps out at 380, or 1300 HP cured. This is quite a small amount, and I think the maximum could be boosted to allow the White Mage to charge the damage longer for bigger damage spikes, to be more similar to Paladin's Divine Emblem.
  One way this could be done is by having tiers that scale less favorably after the current cap, especially considering a single Cure VI can cap the current amount. The player should be able to get more damage out of repeated castings of Holy after reaching the current cap, but a bigger single nuke by holding it off for the pivotal moment if they have been curing the party for some time. This will make a tactical ability that has potential for large numbers that reflect Paladin's similar abilities.
• Adjust the damage boost effect to be somehow dependent on Divine Magic skill.
  Divine Emblem, the Paladin analog to Afflatus Solace's Holy Laser is hugely dependent on stacking Divine Magic skill. This has led a portion of the Divine Magic related nuking gear to favor Divine Magic skill over other stats.
  Having Divine Magic skill influence damage from charged Afflatus Solace Holy spells could be another way to increase damage. One method could be in conjunction with damage boost tiers from using cures, in which a portion of Divine Magic is added to either the base damage or perhaps dMND for each tier reached.

Still, these would buff Afflatus Solace, which is still pretty powerful in regards to Afflatus Misery. Changes have to be done carefully considering this as well, lest we just remake the situation we have now between the two job abilities reoccur after adjusting them. But I think the proposed changes here would fit Solace, so I think it re-asserts the question about what role we want for Afflatus Misery.

[Catmato]

Since Solace is the default back-line stance, I think they should enhance Misery as a front-line stance. Give Misery some delay reduction or Fencer trait, or some much-needed accuracy or attack. Let's put those hammers to good use!

[Annalise]

[*]Give WHM more (functional!) Barstatus spells, Bardispelra at the least. Remember that one of the factors behind Embrava dependence is that it is the only performance buff that can't be dispelled.

Not entirely true, aside from the mentioned light/dark arts. If the monster casts Kaustra (e.g. Diabolos Mega Boss in Dynamis -Tavnazia) it will overwrite Embrava and the effect will be gone. While not technically 'dispelled', the buff is still removed.

I totally agree. We should get banish V at least, and the damage when cast on undeads (and maybe demons too?) should nearly be up there with what blm can do on normal mobs with their equally tiered elemental nukes. Holy and Holy 2 does get boosted by afflatuses, but the damage is really terrible even with that, compared to the MP it uses. I think they should have a damage potential of about 80% of AM and AM2, up to maybe 100% with max afflatus bonuses. If the quick cast is an issue, extend the casting time to let it be more comparable with AM and AM2 instead.

Why is this not overpowered? Even with the same base damage ratings, BLM has access to a more nuking gear, has native MAB traits, can do their maximum damage from spells on a much greater variety of mobs (the only place where WHM would have a chance of getting close would be on undeads), and on top of that, they can rotate between different elements within the same tier when waiting for spell cooldowns to go away (although this isn't as relevant anymore when they implement the planned cast time changes).

In short, giving this to whm would not make them a go-to job for when you need magic damage. blm and sch would still outperform it in that department, so there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to get some nuking love.

I believe back in the day, Holy used to be a lot stronger than it used to be. White mages spammed it a lot, and it got nerfed. I'd have to dig up the info to find it... but this may be long forgotten anyways. There used to be a LOT of weird stuff (e.g. charmed mobs on BST could uncharm if hit with a critical, paladins used to sub BST and charm beastmen in experience parties because it was far more hate than provoke, etc.)

[Economizer]

Since Solace is the default back-line stance, I think they should enhance Misery as a front-line stance.

I've been looking for discussion on what Misery is, so if you feel so inclined, feel free to elaborate.

However, as things are in the game currently, I feel that Solace fits the role of front-line stance much better then Misery.

Misery has four major reasons to use it, Esuna, Auspice, Banish, Cura.

With the exception of Banish, all of these heavily favor situations in parties. The Esuna buff itself is quite nice, but unless Misery is useful for other things, all it feels like is a nerf to the spell that requires using Misery to ungimp it. Auspice gives an accuracy boost and a bit of enspell damage, but the spell itself has such a low duration, the enspell effect can eat into other additional effects from weapons and sambas, that it is very so much a pain to use. Banish is slow casting compared to Holy and the way the boost is charged up makes using it essentially impossible to effectively use. Cura suffers the same effect of having the boost mechanic being hard to use, all the while having Curaga spells be easier and effectively just as cheap to cast.

Solace has four main draws as well, Cureskin, Barspell MDB, Holy Laser, and the Sacrifice buff.

Cureskin gives the target a temporary extra health boost, which is great for being next to the mob, without the situational of using AoE cures. Increased MDB on barspells means you can prevent even more damage for the party, and if you have fast macro usage you can swap nearly full strength barspells on the fly without having to switch stances, which can be nearly effective as using Stun for magic damage heavy mobs. Holy casts much faster then Banish, and the charge effect plays much more nicely with being able to have an extra boost of magic damage whenever you need it. Sacrifice is probably the only ability that doesn't really fit too much with front-lining, but given all the rest of the abilities you'll have a much more solid job ability choice with Solace overall.

Give Misery some delay reduction or Fencer trait, or some much-needed accuracy or attack.

Delay reduction would just hurt TP build in high haste situations (further making Misery a useless JA) unless you mean job ability haste.

Fencer is useless in the majority of situations, because if you're going to melee with White Mage, the wise idea is generally to DW, since it is the only way to hit delay cap, you get the stats from the offhanded weapon helping you, shields generally have subpar stats, and the extra hit from DW weapon skills. So unless White Mage got some JA haste as well, Fencer would be rarely used, and if White Mage got JA Haste from Misery, you wouldn't need to add Fencer to make Misery useful. Additionally, that 5% extra crit rate is unlikely to make Hexa Strike better then Realmrazer again, and most of White Mage's TP moves go on tiers instead of linear progression with TP.

Misery is supposed to be giving White Mages accuracy already with Auspice, although I don't have solid enough numbers to argue if it is a sufficient boost, and I won't really say no to more attack.

I think a major part of the equation here is how far we're willing to go to buff Misery.

For example, with the current plans to deny Last Resort's planned Haste buff to 1h jobs, SE has essentially stated that they're not too hot on the idea of giving 1h jobs more sources of JA Haste. Perhaps White Mage would get an exception since Misery is exclusive to White Mage, but this seems unlikely, especially with the Haste arm race that would ensue from melee Red Mages, maybe melee Bards, and perhaps eventually melee Geomancers. Still, given say a 15% JA Haste boost from Misery, you'd see it solidly used for melee situations, and might even see situations where White Mage is better off not using Dual Wield even.

If we're happy with the implications of a particular buff to Misery however, and it fits our stated goals, we should push for it.

[Teraniku]

Misery definitely needs something to make it more worth using. Or maybe it's just that Solace is so good it makes Misery look like garbage by comparison? Cureskin is pretty tough to beat.

You mean besides ungimping Esuna?

[Caketime]

You mean besides ungimping Esuna?

There is so much wrong with that spell, I don't even use it if I can get away with it. It's like the devs thought of a good spell to give us, then they had a meeting to figure out how they could make it not worth using in most situations, shelving the spell right out of the box.

How do you think it could be improved? I think centering the target around a player of the WHM's choice would be a start, and maybe granting a Caress-like resistance bonus against status effects removed with Misery active would help tremendously. Nothing like cycling your Solace and Misery to Sacrifice and Esuna a group only to have the boss re-apply enfeebles immediately.

[Catmato]

First off, let me say that I am interested in a discussion, rather than an argument. Some things I say might sound hostile or sarcastic, but they aren't intended that way.

Also, since the word "casual" seems to have gained a negative connotation lately, I use the word "hobbyist" instead. I use it to refer to someone like myself who likes and promotes the ideas of MeleeWHM, but doesn't revolve their character around it.

However, as things are in the game currently, I feel that Solace fits the role of front-line stance much better then Misery.

Misery has four major reasons to use it, Esuna, Auspice, Banish, Cura.
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Solace has four main draws as well, Cureskin, Barspell MDB, Holy Laser, and the Sacrifice buff.

You're saying Solace is the front-line stance, but then it seems like you go on to prove that Misery is more fit for it. All four of the spells benefited by Misery depend on being next to the mob. I see your rationale, but I still only see being on the frontline benefiting barspells, which I'll admit can be huge, especially with tactical Sacrosanctity.

Regardless, how we classify the stances is of no importance, so let's concern ourselves with how Misery could be adjusted.

Delay reduction would just hurt TP build in high haste situations (further making Misery a useless JA) unless you mean job ability haste.

Fencer is useless in the majority of situations

I guess I suggested delay reduction because it would be more likely to get than JA haste. Typically when I'm swinging a club, I only have 40% haste, somewhat rarely any Dual Wield and/or Haste Samba. While my suggestion wouldn't help the diehard MeleeWHM or those in ideal situations, it would be a decent boost to a hobbyist MeleeWHM or those who may not have planned to break out the club.

Additionally, that 5% extra crit rate is unlikely to make Hexa Strike better then Realmrazer again

My assumption, again, was made for the hobbyist MeleeWHMs who may not have Realmrazer or wouldn't be meleeing anything harder than an Abyssea NM. It wouldn't be a huge boost to Hexa Strike, but it would benefit.

I think a major part of the equation here is how far we're willing to go to buff Misery.
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If we're happy with the implications of a particular buff to Misery however, and it fits our stated goals, we should push for it.

I'll take any boost we can get, especially if it's a front-line boost. I love the fact that there are others who see a Misery boost the same way I do. Although, from my perspective, my suggestion would give me a moderate boost, but from your perspective is almost completely useless.

Edit: I forgot to add that the upcoming adjustments to 1hand damage formulas could be a huge boost. I can't wait to see what's in store for it.