Overall Battle System Adjustments for the Future

[Rustic]

Let's put it this way.

The more things stop mattering, the less complex the game becomes. The less complex the game is in this regard, the fewer challenges you can produce.

People want to pump their attack to insane zerglike heights? Make all the drawbacks matter. MP costs effectively don't matter? Change it. SC's don't matter because we're all spamming WS's at the target and don't give a flying fig? Change it.

L75-99 did a lot to mess with the game, and not all of it was good. Adoulin-era changes should help to improve these, but seriously- there's a ton of options here that should be looked at and tested from the playerbase.

We're the ones out there using what you made. Listen.

[saevel]

It seems some people are asking SE to nerf Twilight Scyth.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112...=1#post5575871

That weapon is only ever used in very specific situations, otherwise it's very weak.

[Fynlar]

Okay, it's extremely easy to hit floor 80. So, you should currently be able to get a piece of F100 gear every 5 run once you understand the event.

I wouldn't say it's *extremely* easy, it's not THAT much easier than hitting F100 is. Still quite possible to be screwed by bad floors/luck

IMO any group that could "easily" consistently clear F80 certainly has the potential to hit F100, and in many cases they'd be better off by just trying for F100

[Okipuit]

I'd like to respond to a couple of questions and feedback that were brought up regarding the battle system adjustments.

Damage and Defense

Right now, without damage reduction gear I am still taking roughly 800 damage or so in Legion from single hits. Using Last Resort or Berserk without any damage reduction gear and we are talking about eating nearly 1500 damage. Even with 50% damage reduction, that's still 750 damage, making it quite difficult to use Last Resort or Berserk. I don't want you to increase the damage cap any more from what it is currently. However, I do agree with adjustments that simply make it so the damage you receive is decreased significantly when you increase your defense.

To briefly reiterate what was announced previously, we will be making adjustments so that:

• The maximum value of damage received is increased higher than what it is currently.
• It will be possible to reduce damage more than currently.

We've also seen quite a lot of comments mentioning that backline jobs as well as lightly armored jobs would be affected negatively from the aforementioned defense adjustments.

As a general direction on this issue, while the defense of heavy armor jobs and light armor jobs will not be the same, in order to prevent this from becoming too large of a disparity we will be making it so there will not be situations where a certain job is unable to rush in and attack.

As was suggested in feedback, we will be looking into various ways to do this such as increasing the amount of light armor with damage reduction or increasing the amount of evasion gear.

Hate Cap

Please make sure to deal with the hate cap issue properly. I'd really like to see adjustments that make it so the hate cap cannot be reached easily or adjustments that make tank jobs function better as tanks.

We plan on making adjustments to hate.

Producer Matsui will be explaining further details to provide insight on the current situation and how things will be changed. We also received the below message from him as well:

I'd like to take a moment to explain about the current calculation method as well, but I just need a little bit more time.

Regarding Weapons

I think that both one-handed and two-handed weapons need to be adjusted. Raising one-handed weapons up to the level of two-handed weapons is too simplistic of a solution, and comparatively the balance would be maintained through compensation via equipment.

Current situation:
Accuracy: One-handed weapons < Two-handed weapons
Damage: One-handed weapons < Two-handed weapons

Proposed adjustment:
Accuracy: One-handed weapons > Two-handed weapons
Damage: One-handed weapons < Two-handed weapons

Please understand that the adjustments that we are currently looking into for weapon adjustments are not the end. We would like to have each weapon have their own special traits, and the adjustments will take place step by step.

Finally, in regards to weapons that deal non-elemental damage, specifically the Twilight Scythe.

The below is a simple compilation of the opinions we've seen on the forums:

• Leaving it the way it is currently is fine
• It needs to be adjusted
  • Leave the effect as it is and lower the damage value
  • Change it to the same effect as Murasamemaru (WS are non-elemental damage)
  • Increase the jobs that can equip it

Due to the fact that adding more jobs to this weapon doesn't lend itself very well as a solution, I'd like to remove this as one of the options; however, we would like to hear everyone's opinions for and against adjustments to Twilight Scythe. We would like to proceed carefully with this, but please keep in mind that just because one opinion is greater in volume does not mean that we will base our decision solely on that.

[Catmato]

Leaving it the way it is currently is fine

This is the correct answer.

Edit: Formatting

[Economizer]

We've also seen quite a lot of comments mentioning that backline jobs as well as lightly armored jobs would be affected negatively from the aforementioned defense adjustments.

As a general direction on this issue, while the defense of heavy armor jobs and light armor jobs will not be the same, in order to prevent this from becoming too large of a disparity we will be making it so there will not be situations where a certain job is unable to rush in and attack.

As was suggested in feedback, we will be looking into various ways to do this such as increasing the amount of light armor with damage reduction or increasing the amount of evasion gear.

This is a problem with backline jobs, especially if you happen to be a Tarutaru (actually Tarutaru has problems with any position they'd be taking damage).

While having stuff like evasion being able to mitigate damage for lighter classes is a nice prospect, many backline jobs don't have great defensive stats.

Some jobs have methods that are supposed to cope with this, such as essentially being able to participate in a battle from a safer, ranged position, such as Black Mages.

Other jobs have to run in for various reasons however. While this risk is supposed to be part of playing the job, it will now be increased without having an increased payoff for increased risk.

Bards, Corsairs, Scholars, White Mages, and eventually Geomancers having to run into combat to apply some buff run into this risk.

One example that comes to me particularly is that of a White Mage, although this example may apply in some ways to other jobs. A few years back, the then dev team made comments about wanting White Mages to be encouraged to have more situations where it could stand in the fray. They added stuff like Afflatus Misery, Cura, Esuna, and Auspice.

Since then, this has been pretty much ignored, and I feel that increase damage from standing in the fray will remove any long term occupation of the front line for White Mage permanently. Obviously, not every situation will be friendly to this play style, but the options for it are nearly non-existent. I think that intentionally standing in the fray, with relevant buffs or armor to indicate this, should be rewarded with its own set of trade offs, not just penalized.

Finally, some time ago, White Mage had the option of a piece of armor called Divine Breastplate, opening up the possibility of the occasional, but decidedly rare piece of heavy armor for White Mage. This piece had more defense (50) then any other piece of armor in the game for years.

The newest piece of rare heavy armor for White Mage is Sublime Breastplate, which has 60 DEF, which is even less then the Manteel body pieces (63) from Sea, and way less then other heavy armors (70-81). Maybe it won't be better then other heavy armors like back in the day (especially since it is doubtful that there will be a White Mage breastplate with the damage taken -11% of the 80 defense Laeradr Breastplate), but White Mage breastplate armors should give defense boosts competitive with other pieces of extremely heavy armors, especially considering how rare they are.

Regarding Weapons

I think that both one-handed and two-handed weapons need to be adjusted. Raising one-handed weapons up to the level of two-handed weapons is too simplistic of a solution, and comparatively the balance would be maintained through compensation via equipment.

Current situation:
Accuracy: One-handed weapons < Two-handed weapons
Damage: One-handed weapons < Two-handed weapons

Proposed adjustment:
Accuracy: One-handed weapons > Two-handed weapons
Damage: One-handed weapons < Two-handed weapons

I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly, but unless the ratio caps for attack are the same on both weapons, we will always have the problem that 1h weapons are inferior to 2h weapons in every situation found in a party.

I think that having the maximum ratios be the same for both classes of weapon but have the base Accuracy and Attack calculations be different may be an acceptable way to have 1h and 2h weapons be different if that's the decided outcome.

-

Another issue is that Dual Wield lowers TP gain. This isn't an issue in low Haste environments since players using Dual Wield will be making a valid trade off, but in party fights with a full set of buffs the benefit of a higher attack speed is nullified and the drawback of lower TP gain remains.

Due to this fact, there are situations where certain gear setups lead jobs known for the trait like Dancer to benefit from only wielding a weapon in one hand.

Obviously, the attack speed bonus Dual Wield cannot be increased past the delay reduction cap, and having more then a certain amount of Dual Wield when there is sufficient Haste present will go mean the extra Dual Wield goes to waste. But having more Dual Wield then necessary should do nothing rather then lowering TP gain.

Finally, in regards to weapons that deal non-elemental damage, specifically the Twilight Scythe.

The below is a simple compilation of the opinions we've seen on the forums:

• Leaving it the way it is currently is fine
• It needs to be adjusted
  • Leave the effect as it is and lower the damage value
  • Change it to the same effect as Murasamemaru (WS are non-elemental damage)
  • Increase the jobs that can equip it

On the Twilight Scythe, I haven't really heard any issues. But if there is an issue to be found, I'd say it is that magic damage aren't preferred over Dark Knight's melee attacks with the Twilight Scythe. This isn't the fault of the Twilight Scythe I think, but instead from magic damage sources being too weak even compared to a substandard melee weapon.

I think the best solutions would either be to do the first or second of these, with the first being obviously preferable.

• Ensure that the buffs to magic damage ensure that a decently geared and buffed player can always outdamage a decently geared Dark Knight with a Twilight Scythe without nerfing the Twilight Scythe.
• Make mobs that are supposed to resist certain damage types actually take added damage from magic.

Please continue with the adjustments to magic damage before even considering changes to the Twilight Scythe further.

Another thing to do before changing the Twilight Scythe would be to better define why it is considered troublesome, with actual situations defined, so feedback can be given on these.

[solidous]

I'd like to respond to a couple of questions and feedback that were brought up regarding the battle system adjustments.

Damage and Defense



To briefly reiterate what was announced previously, we will be making adjustments so that:[list][*]The maximum value of damage received is increased higher than what it is currently.

So you are going to make it harder for me to participate in legion and Odin II on my main job DRK. Please don't do this I already get crap for being a Taru.

[Yinnyth]

As was suggested in feedback, we will be looking into various ways to do this such as increasing the amount of light armor with damage reduction or increasing the amount of evasion gear.

The only way evasion currently works as a defensive option is if you have utsusemi to soak up some of your bad luck. Defense is not the only underused defensive statistic that needs adjusting.

[FrankReynolds]

I'd like to respond to a couple of questions and feedback that were brought up regarding the battle system adjustments.

Damage and Defense



To briefly reiterate what was announced previously, we will be making adjustments so that:

• The maximum value of damage received is increased higher than what it is currently.
• It will be possible to reduce damage more than currently.

We've also seen quite a lot of comments mentioning that backline jobs as well as lightly armored jobs would be affected negatively from the aforementioned defense adjustments.

As a general direction on this issue, while the defense of heavy armor jobs and light armor jobs will not be the same, in order to prevent this from becoming too large of a disparity we will be making it so there will not be situations where a certain job is unable to rush in and attack.

As was suggested in feedback, we will be looking into various ways to do this such as increasing the amount of light armor with damage reduction or increasing the amount of evasion gear.

So to be clear: You're planning on Increasing the importance of defense by increasing damage taken, increasing damage reduction from defense and adding new gear that has more defense and / or completely negates damage to compensate?

This sounds like a move to add new gear that features different stats instead of gear with better stats. How clever of you. Now people won't have to complain about how they have to do 5,000 hours of one event to add .03% to their DPS. Instead, they can do one event for 5,000 hours in order to get a piece of equipment that adds .03% to their defense.

Regarding Weapons



Please understand that the adjustments that we are currently looking into for weapon adjustments are not the end. We would like to have each weapon have their own special traits, and the adjustments will take place step by step.

I hate to be the one to say this, but you really need to test all of this stuff on the test server and then go live with it all at once. If you do this in bits and pieces it will be incredibly aggravating for the end users to constantly have to adjust to.

Finally, in regards to weapons that deal non-elemental damage, specifically the Twilight Scythe.

The below is a simple compilation of the opinions we've seen on the forums:

• Leaving it the way it is currently is fine
• It needs to be adjusted
  • Leave the effect as it is and lower the damage value
  • Change it to the same effect as Murasamemaru (WS are non-elemental damage)
  • Increase the jobs that can equip it

Due to the fact that adding more jobs to this weapon doesn't lend itself very well as a solution, I'd like to remove this as one of the options; however, we would like to hear everyone's opinions for and against adjustments to Twilight Scythe. We would like to proceed carefully with this, but please keep in mind that just because one opinion is greater in volume does not mean that we will base our decision solely on that.

Why are you adjusting niche weapons that most people don't care about when you have literally thousands of requests for changes to mythics/Relics/Empyreans that actually matter?

I say leave it how it is and fix some more important weapons / weapon skills instead.

[Quetzacoatl]

Why are you adjusting niche weapons that most people don't care about when you have literally thousands of requests for changes to mythics/Relics/Empyreans that actually matter?

I say leave it how it is and fix some more important weapons / weapon skills instead.

This, this, this, and this. I really see no reason to nerf Twilight Scythe at all...it's a balanced Scythe that doesn't encroach on Apocalypse, Liberator or any other niche scythe in the game. What's the actual complaint about it anyhow? The death proc? That only just works on normal enemies, it would be overpowered if it worked on any NMs. And if we're worried about how much damage it deals per swing, I can guarantee that something like Nirastamo or Wroth Scythe have a higher DMG rating and would out-damage Twilight Scythe pretty easy.