Ludicrous game mechanics are ludicrous

[Alhanelem]

What about the NPCs that tell you your current fame? If a person spoke to every NPC in the town, you are bound to come across him. It's how I figured it out when all the guides that existed were in Japanese.

It's really cryptic, and there's no indication that what he's telling you actually has any meaning. It's about the only clue the game offers about reputation, but most people won't know to talk to these NPCs until they find out from another person or a guide that these guys are fame checkers.

[Fynlar]

Reputation/influence is a concept in many RPGs so I don't see any big problem with it being in this game.

However, I will agree that Norg in particular has few means of building rep that make sense and could have done with some simpler/clearer means of raising it. Technically, Yagudo necklaces are simple, but they aren't exactly obvious.

[Dragonlord]

These are great points, and there are many other parts of the game that should be revamped because they simply don't work with the end game heavy nature of the current game. When most people didn't have more than 1 level 75, the midgame timesink made sense. Now this isn't the current dev's fault, its mostly things long-forgotten many dev teams ago.

The reps have mentioned they're working on "playability improvements". If SoA is geared towards attracting a new audience towards the game, i believe the devs should push more of these small tweaks that make the game less chore and more fun in the crucial first few hours of playing. At current, there are many things that take hours to complete that have been implemented over the past 10 years that restrict newcomers from getting to the fun parts. Its no one thing, but the accumulation of all the parts.

[Glamdring]

um... everything IS handed to you even on XI on a silver platter. With the Wikis, and the other fan sites if you can't find information on a subject it's generally solely because you chose not to look for it. Ok, new content you might have to wait a weak or 2 for the players that are willing to write posts to get around to it, but it will be there. for most of the content it's simply a matter of connecting the dots and grinding it out, with the remainder being knowing how to play your job; and there are even guides for that. I honestly think the reason the devs don't comment much on content is the players are already doing it faster than they can crank it out.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

um... everything IS handed to you even on XI on a silver platter (by) the Wikis, and the other fan sites

So the playerbase handed themselves something "on a silver platter?"

That's not how that idiom works.

[Freebytes]

I agree with Kraggy on this one. While reputation is fine and does not necessarily need to be fixed, I do have an issue with the hints given for quests. While we do not need a compass, there are quests that make absolutely no sense, and there is no way in the world you would have the information available to solve them without external sources.

These issues are more problematic when the quest description does not supply any clues either. Here is a good example of a quest with a decent clue: "The Library of Magic wants you to help retrieve its overdue library books. In this case, Hae Jakkya, that Mithra who runs the auction house in Windurst Woods, has checked out the book 'A Song of Love', but has failed to return it by the due date."

Here is one that is not so good: "The wind blew away the sailor's cap that Paytah was minding for his father. You fished it out of the sea, but now it is torn and tattered. If you could only find someone who can repair Paytah's father's cap..."

Now, without using the Wiki, tell me who you would talk to in order to repair the cap.

In addition, I prefer content that is simplistic and easy to learn and access. Abyssea makes it simple to figure out. If you are near mobs that drop an item, you can use that item to spawn a NM. In contrast to this, Salvage is a complete puzzle. While having some mysterious events is good, not everything should require you to go through so many complications. ZNMs, ENMs, Sky, Sea, Einherjar, Dynamis, Limbus, etc. They are all confusing and require a certain amount of time to understand. Feathers, stones, cards, chips, plates, etc. Whereas, in the main world, none of this matters. You simply travel from place to place killing things, and it works. You get some triggers and fight some creatures. Very simple. Everything should be so simple.

In addition, I would like to see some otherwise useless items put to use. Why have items in the game that are only ever used once in a decade? Certain crafted items can be brought back to life if they were simply used to spawn creatures or as replacements for other items to spawn creatures. Crafted spawn items were common in the past (such as for Hakutaku and Shen), and I am not saying that this mechanic should be revived. Instead, perhaps some of the items that are never used for anything anymore should be available as replaceable items for crafting. So, instead of needing a Snow God Core, perhaps people could craft one instead. Instead of needing a Winterstone, existing rare materials could be used instead.

Ice Crystal + Cashmere Cloth + Ice Cluster = Winterstone

Fire Crystal + Molybdenum Ore + Fire Cluster = Summerstone

Those are just examples. It could also bring some old, fun HNMs to life.

[Prrsha]

Although I've been playing since early '05 it never ceases to amaze me how ludicrous some of XI's game mechanics are: of the many, the most direly bad IMO is Reputation. It is so totally typical of SE's "tell 'em nothing, make 'em use a fansite" philosophy which permeates the entire game.

This fact hit me again over the weekend when, for the umpteenth time in nearly 8 years I did the NIN scrolls in Norg. Think about how this works and then tell me with a straight face this is how enjoyable MMOs should be .. and don't for one second say "use the web" because that just proves my point for me ...

To do the six Norg quests for these scrolls you need to get rep. level 4. Of course, the game doesn't tell you this, nor remotely hint at it, at all. This goes for the entire rep. system, there's zero in-game indication what that little fanfare when you turn in a rep-bearing quest means.

Indeed, apart from the totally obscure rep-NPCs' responses should you get round to talking to them you would be forgiven for being totally ignorant the rep. system exists.

However, even should you realise this .. again, IN-GAME ONLY counts, fansites are a cop-out .. the fact that quests are rep-based is the next totally hidden feature.

Taking my Norg quests in particular, let's say to find the quest giver in Port Bastok and do the initial quest. The NPC does indeed tell you that it's repeatable and you may, for 350 gil, do so.

However, that's it, period. The fact that you're gaining Norg rep. isn't made known, even obliquely.

When you eventually get to Norg and speak to the NPCs that give these quests there is nothing at all that remotely hints that these guys have any quests to give you, far less any idea that the rep. you need for them largely needs to be done by 20+ repeats of a quest half the world away: yes, there are other quests, like the Yagudo necklaces which are equally hidden as to their outcome.

Thus, in order to get these quests you need to perform repeated actions to raise a stat you know nothing about for a number of times you have no idea about and even if you finally manage to stumble upon these quest NPCs when your rep. is somehow level 4 you'll have no idea why.

Can anyone, from SE or outside, seriously tell me, with a straight face this is how it should be and that, in the absence of the 'official guide', 'DAT mining' and other third-party efforts like the Wiki, the quest system in this game is at all playable?

The sources of all the Teleport scrolls, Warp 2 (Warp is likely to be stumbled upon since it only needs rep. 2 to get), the most required NIN Ichi scrolls, etc. are a huge mystery that only the Wiki reveals.

Is this how an RPG should be?

Seriously?

No, I don't want it 'dumbing down' to the level WOW has become, or indeed how FFXIV seems to be headed, but there's a happy medium between "silver platter" mode and the absolute requirement to ALT-TAB to a Wiki to know what's going on.

Oh yes, one final thought, what sort of asinine rep. system is it that allows me to become a HERO of much of the original gameworld by feeding 25 stacks of moss to a sheep in an obscure little fishing village in the middle of nowhere?

In 03 and 04, I just kept speaking to the NPCs every month RL time or so. I started to notice when I finished one quest, another one would open up and so on. It's was the same way with any RPG at the time like Baldur's Gate for example or Fallout. In all of those games (heck even pokemon) speaking to an NPC more then once over a given period of time would result in more flagged quests.

However... I do agree with one point that is made. The clues to finding out on how to complete the quest (like the Stray Mary one) were very lacking. Other RPGs made it more clear.

Oh and the moss comment. The moss quest is there for the lazy people who don't want to bother with non-repeatable quests for fame or for people who don't like to speak to NPCs. It's your silver platter so to speak.

[Toadie-Odie]

In 03 and 04, I just kept speaking to the NPCs every month RL time or so. I started to notice when I finished one quest, another one would open up and so on. It's was the same way with any RPG at the time like Baldur's Gate for example or Fallout. In all of those games (heck even pokemon) speaking to an NPC more then once over a given period of time would result in more flagged quests.

However... I do agree with one point that is made. The clues to finding out on how to complete the quest (like the Stray Mary one) were very lacking. Other RPGs made it more clear.

Oh and the moss comment. The moss quest is there for the lazy people who don't want to bother with non-repeatable quests for fame or for people who don't like to speak to NPCs. It's your silver platter so to speak.

I will add to this about flagging quests. I've found over the years that any time you flag a quest you can often times speak to nearby npcs for additional information.

I try hard to help out over at http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/ in keeping guides and information current and accurate.
To the OP:

SE didn't create that website or any of the others like it. It was created by people like me and so many others that have written guides, tested abilities, crunched numbers, etc. We didn't have to share that knowledge, but we chose to share it anyway, and we are able to do it because the information is there in the game already. Granted it may not be fully spelled out but it is there for players to piece together and utilize.

Reading your post makes me feel like you are tearing down a community that grew out of a desire to understand, puzzle out, and share information for those that are unable or unwilling to do the same. I feel it's a very good sign that an online game can foster such a community and shouldn't be put down for existing.

[Xerius]

Personally, I love the idea of fame. Although, I do wish that there were easier ways of checking your fame although for a game that's been running for this long you don't really need to check a fansite simply asking your LS or even /sh in Jeuno should do the trick.

[Vicious]

Some things are obtuse to the point of frustration, yes. However, this is a pretty bad example; the playerbase figured out how quests and reputation were linked pretty quickly, and it's been common knowledge ever since. Things like this are meant to facilitate communication between players, which is pretty much the entire point of the game.