Ludicrous game mechanics are ludicrous

[Glamdring]

um... everything IS handed to you even on XI on a silver platter. With the Wikis, and the other fan sites if you can't find information on a subject it's generally solely because you chose not to look for it. Ok, new content you might have to wait a weak or 2 for the players that are willing to write posts to get around to it, but it will be there. for most of the content it's simply a matter of connecting the dots and grinding it out, with the remainder being knowing how to play your job; and there are even guides for that. I honestly think the reason the devs don't comment much on content is the players are already doing it faster than they can crank it out.

[Freebytes]

I agree with Kraggy on this one. While reputation is fine and does not necessarily need to be fixed, I do have an issue with the hints given for quests. While we do not need a compass, there are quests that make absolutely no sense, and there is no way in the world you would have the information available to solve them without external sources.

These issues are more problematic when the quest description does not supply any clues either. Here is a good example of a quest with a decent clue: "The Library of Magic wants you to help retrieve its overdue library books. In this case, Hae Jakkya, that Mithra who runs the auction house in Windurst Woods, has checked out the book 'A Song of Love', but has failed to return it by the due date."

Here is one that is not so good: "The wind blew away the sailor's cap that Paytah was minding for his father. You fished it out of the sea, but now it is torn and tattered. If you could only find someone who can repair Paytah's father's cap..."

Now, without using the Wiki, tell me who you would talk to in order to repair the cap.

In addition, I prefer content that is simplistic and easy to learn and access. Abyssea makes it simple to figure out. If you are near mobs that drop an item, you can use that item to spawn a NM. In contrast to this, Salvage is a complete puzzle. While having some mysterious events is good, not everything should require you to go through so many complications. ZNMs, ENMs, Sky, Sea, Einherjar, Dynamis, Limbus, etc. They are all confusing and require a certain amount of time to understand. Feathers, stones, cards, chips, plates, etc. Whereas, in the main world, none of this matters. You simply travel from place to place killing things, and it works. You get some triggers and fight some creatures. Very simple. Everything should be so simple.

In addition, I would like to see some otherwise useless items put to use. Why have items in the game that are only ever used once in a decade? Certain crafted items can be brought back to life if they were simply used to spawn creatures or as replacements for other items to spawn creatures. Crafted spawn items were common in the past (such as for Hakutaku and Shen), and I am not saying that this mechanic should be revived. Instead, perhaps some of the items that are never used for anything anymore should be available as replaceable items for crafting. So, instead of needing a Snow God Core, perhaps people could craft one instead. Instead of needing a Winterstone, existing rare materials could be used instead.

Ice Crystal + Cashmere Cloth + Ice Cluster = Winterstone

Fire Crystal + Molybdenum Ore + Fire Cluster = Summerstone

Those are just examples. It could also bring some old, fun HNMs to life.

[Prrsha]

Although I've been playing since early '05 it never ceases to amaze me how ludicrous some of XI's game mechanics are: of the many, the most direly bad IMO is Reputation. It is so totally typical of SE's "tell 'em nothing, make 'em use a fansite" philosophy which permeates the entire game.

This fact hit me again over the weekend when, for the umpteenth time in nearly 8 years I did the NIN scrolls in Norg. Think about how this works and then tell me with a straight face this is how enjoyable MMOs should be .. and don't for one second say "use the web" because that just proves my point for me ...

To do the six Norg quests for these scrolls you need to get rep. level 4. Of course, the game doesn't tell you this, nor remotely hint at it, at all. This goes for the entire rep. system, there's zero in-game indication what that little fanfare when you turn in a rep-bearing quest means.

Indeed, apart from the totally obscure rep-NPCs' responses should you get round to talking to them you would be forgiven for being totally ignorant the rep. system exists.

However, even should you realise this .. again, IN-GAME ONLY counts, fansites are a cop-out .. the fact that quests are rep-based is the next totally hidden feature.

Taking my Norg quests in particular, let's say to find the quest giver in Port Bastok and do the initial quest. The NPC does indeed tell you that it's repeatable and you may, for 350 gil, do so.

However, that's it, period. The fact that you're gaining Norg rep. isn't made known, even obliquely.

When you eventually get to Norg and speak to the NPCs that give these quests there is nothing at all that remotely hints that these guys have any quests to give you, far less any idea that the rep. you need for them largely needs to be done by 20+ repeats of a quest half the world away: yes, there are other quests, like the Yagudo necklaces which are equally hidden as to their outcome.

Thus, in order to get these quests you need to perform repeated actions to raise a stat you know nothing about for a number of times you have no idea about and even if you finally manage to stumble upon these quest NPCs when your rep. is somehow level 4 you'll have no idea why.

Can anyone, from SE or outside, seriously tell me, with a straight face this is how it should be and that, in the absence of the 'official guide', 'DAT mining' and other third-party efforts like the Wiki, the quest system in this game is at all playable?

The sources of all the Teleport scrolls, Warp 2 (Warp is likely to be stumbled upon since it only needs rep. 2 to get), the most required NIN Ichi scrolls, etc. are a huge mystery that only the Wiki reveals.

Is this how an RPG should be?

Seriously?

No, I don't want it 'dumbing down' to the level WOW has become, or indeed how FFXIV seems to be headed, but there's a happy medium between "silver platter" mode and the absolute requirement to ALT-TAB to a Wiki to know what's going on.

Oh yes, one final thought, what sort of asinine rep. system is it that allows me to become a HERO of much of the original gameworld by feeding 25 stacks of moss to a sheep in an obscure little fishing village in the middle of nowhere?

In 03 and 04, I just kept speaking to the NPCs every month RL time or so. I started to notice when I finished one quest, another one would open up and so on. It's was the same way with any RPG at the time like Baldur's Gate for example or Fallout. In all of those games (heck even pokemon) speaking to an NPC more then once over a given period of time would result in more flagged quests.

However... I do agree with one point that is made. The clues to finding out on how to complete the quest (like the Stray Mary one) were very lacking. Other RPGs made it more clear.

Oh and the moss comment. The moss quest is there for the lazy people who don't want to bother with non-repeatable quests for fame or for people who don't like to speak to NPCs. It's your silver platter so to speak.

[Xerius]

Personally, I love the idea of fame. Although, I do wish that there were easier ways of checking your fame although for a game that's been running for this long you don't really need to check a fansite simply asking your LS or even /sh in Jeuno should do the trick.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

um... everything IS handed to you even on XI on a silver platter (by) the Wikis, and the other fan sites

So the playerbase handed themselves something "on a silver platter?"

That's not how that idiom works.

[Vicious]

Some things are obtuse to the point of frustration, yes. However, this is a pretty bad example; the playerbase figured out how quests and reputation were linked pretty quickly, and it's been common knowledge ever since. Things like this are meant to facilitate communication between players, which is pretty much the entire point of the game.

[Arcon]

This is the same with almost every RPG, online or offline. Some points are valid, and a middle ground on certain things would certainly be nice. Personally, I'd like to see more quest progression that just repetition. As someone said, what's heroic about trading insane quantities of moss or corn to a sheep? To be regarded a hero, you should have to complete almost every quest the city/region has to offer.

However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making the acquiring of this information community-dependent or communication-dependant. Communication and teamwork has always been a major part of this game (as it is of any MMORPG), and I have never, ever, felt this was a drawback or something that stopped me from playing it. Community sites do exist, wikis do exist, the infrastructure is there, and even without those sites you could still always ask LS members and pretty much always get a response. And even if not, what would be so bad about it? That you may have to wait a few days after the release until someone figures out how it works properly?

Compasses are fine and I don't mind them, but the fame concept itself is perfectly reasonable, quests becoming available after a certain level is also perfectly fine. Why would someone tell a random stranger about a dragon that needs slaying? On the other hand, a hero may indeed be asked about something like that. Assuming that fame/reputation exists is only natural and without ever having heard of the concept or played any MMORPGs before, I inherently assumed that something like that was going on, because it feels natural and makes sense.

I don't think that should be removed at all, even fame indicators can be removed for all I care, it's much more immersive to figure it out on your own, as you're progressing through the game. However, they should rework it so fame isn't a generic quest reward, but instead make less of it required, and make repeatable quests only give fame once. That way people actually need to finish more different quests, and tougher quests after a while, which is what justifies your standing as a local hero.

[Prrsha]

I don't think that should be removed at all, even fame indicators can be removed for all I care, it's much more immersive to figure it out on your own, as you're progressing through the game. However, they should rework it so fame isn't a generic quest reward, but instead make less of it required, and make repeatable quests only give fame once. That way people actually need to finish more different quests, and tougher quests after a while, which is what justifies your standing as a local hero.

I'd have to agree with you there. Currently the only difference between non repeatable quests and repeatable ones, is the amount of fame rewarded. Some quests need to be completed first before another one is done (as in a quest chain) but there needs to be more of a link to generic quests of old and worthwhile loot. NIN/BLM/WHM scrolls are an example of something that can only be obtained by a quest. I wish there was more of that in FFXI nowadays. Most things rewarded by old quests are far more easy to obtain on the AH. EXP rewards for non repeatable quests is something I would like to see too... It would help to immerse more players into FFXI's storyline.

[Alhanelem]

Yes. From what you are getting at, it seems that you have very little experience in RPGS or even other games in general. Go play games that have compassess to show you the way or the ones that give you directions to where you need to go. Those games are over in a matter of hours. Start at point A, go to point B as instructed, game finished. They lose all replayability. Games should be like this and not handed to you ona silver platter. The point is, is that if oyu want to, someone else already did go through the same thing and has told other people of such. Even before teh hard information age we have now, there were stratagy guides for this kind of thing.
My first serious RPG was Crono Trigger. Aside from 5 or 6 things that had to do with the main story, you weren't told jack. You had to go out and figure out everything by yourself. This is how games should be. Things from one area affecting another without you even knowing about it. I.e. Things from the past changing the future and then you aren't able to take on said thing in the furture anymore. All of this is called effort, it's a dirty word I know. Back in '04 I never touched any online sources to play FFXI. I would say to people in the LS, "Hey, how do I X?" And guess what, there were people who knew, or knew people who knew. "Oh btw, you need fame for that."
"What's fame?"
Admittedly, perhaps there should have been some blurb when you go to somewhere like Norg from quest NPCs saying something like, "Who are you?" With increases like "Weren't you that guy?" or "Weren't you here before?" much like the fame NPCs change what they say. It would show that there might be something there later.
But the biggest point is, is that back in the day, you had to you know. Go places and talk to people.

I'll just say this: There is a fine line between holding a player's hands the whole way and making something cryptic but solveable. You can have information in a game (e.g., information that any real person could and would reasonably give if they were the NPC) that needs thought in order to make use of, without telling the player every single little thing ("hand holding")

For the example of reuptation- There is nothing anywhere in the game that even hints that there might be some secret number you need to jack up before an NPC will talk to you. I think SE figured that people would simply earn rep over time and people would discover more NPCs would give them stuff to do, but even if you do manage to figure out there's some kind of rep system, there's nothing to tell you exactly when it's changing (except a sound effect that just sounds like "yay you beat the quest") or that there's different rep for different places, or that NPCs in totally unrelated places can increase your rep somewhere else.

The OP isn't suggesting that we add flashing signs every step of the way, but simply that important game systems aren't completely hidden from view and not able to be determined by the average player without consulting a guide on a website.

If you can't, WITH REASONABLE EFFORT, decipher how to solve a quest or game mechanic, then not enough information is being given.

Simple fix for reputaiton: When you complete a quest, have it display a message: "Your reputation with <insert NPC, place, or organization here> has increased." It doesn't have to say how much, or explicitly what it does- just letting the player know it exists and that they made it go up should be plenty enough information.

[Prrsha]

What about the NPCs that tell you your current fame? If a person spoke to every NPC in the town, you are bound to come across him. It's how I figured it out when all the guides that existed were in Japanese.