Weaponskills That Need Most Refinement

[saevel]

LOL you have no idea how RNG works.

AGI effects RA crit rate. DEX does not. Its not a big ??? its a know fact and has been tested and proven. It also does not scale like melee crits.

Then link proof on that fact. No info on azure underwear has proven such, nor any info on the WS's in question as proven such.

All info I've searched and looked into hasn't mentioned AGI effecting ranged crit at all.

I will submit that if AGI is the base for ranged crit then JR's mod sucks, otherwise I must go with the already established and documented information.

Also Taint, your better then this. Rather then scoffing and trying to use ad hominem you could instead post actual info that refutes the point given.

BG's wiki, the most complete list of current game mechanic information, doesn't list anything regarding AGI effecting ranged attack crit rate.

You might as well claim that CHR effects hate while your at it.

Now if you have information that is not there then you should update it to ensure that maximum information is provided to the community.

[saevel]

Ranged Crits are just a 25% damage multiplier (without Dead Aim, which doesn't apply to WSs), while other melee jobs get something more like a 2x damage multiplier from crits against high defense/level enemies. The defense of the enemy has no bearing at all on the value of Ranged Crits.

AGI has been shown to increase ranged critical hit rate (which is why Jishnu's should have been an AGI mod). However, the amounts of AGI that you need to do this are astronomical. You're probably going to pull a 10-12% base ranged crit rate against most high level stuff you fight. Jishnu's innate crit rate boost has not been quantified, though it should be pretty easy to do.

Using these sets:
127 Base damage (Adaman Bullet) + 76 Base Damage (Annihilator Level 99) = 203 base damage before WSC
Last Stand : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/283385 (+46 STR, +94 AGI, +62 RAtk)
- 110 VIT enemy on RNG/WAR with an RCB and assuming perfect TPing and augments: 1711 Base Damage*fTP

51 Base damage (Gargouille Arrow) + 117 Base Damage (Gandiva Level 99) = 168 base damage before WSC
Jishnu's Radiance : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/283384 (+77 DEX, +67 STR, +36 RAtk)
- 110 VIT enemy on RNG/WAR with an RCB and assuming a 10% base crit rate boost from Jishnu's and 5% from Fencer with perfect augments: 1822 Base Damage*fTP with crits

Things unaccounted for:
* Annihilator has more RAtk, RAcc, and access to a useful aftermath. If the Velocity Shot enhancements work on WS (unknown then it also has that)
* Jishnu's base crit rate is unknown. I assumed 10%.
* My sets are very likely non-ideal. The question is whether they're more non-ideal for one WS than the other.

Edit: For the record, Rancorous Mantle is a minor improvement over Vigilance Mantle +1, if it is even better at all.

I have seen zero info on AGI effecting ranged crits. If BG has this info then they should update their own wiki to reflect it rather then on page 110 post #8 of some obscure thread.

I've already stated that ranged crits were only +25% damage, the fact of the matter is they do count and are not a zero number. Your own posted info shows JR doing more then LS, which considering everything makes them about equal which is what I originally stated.

Also 10% would be low balling JR big time. All other crit mythics are 15% base @100 with some being higher @200 (effects Fencer and moonshade bonus). VS was nerfed to 10% AFTER it was created. 15% seems to be a very common and acceptable number to use, I'd suggest you use it rather then shorting JR. Also why the f*ck are you using Kote on JR? Should be athos's gloves for the STR /DEX and +3% crit rate along with +0.06 fTP per hit 4/8 of the time.

This is not a Archery vs Marksmanship debate, Marks wins easily due to the way ranged attacks work along with it's versatility. Anni is a better weapon, hands down, then Gandiva. This is a debate between the two WS's, JR and LS. JR works fine and the real problem between the two is the ammo not the WS.

[Byrth]

It appears that I added the information and a citation to bgwiki on December 5th:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Critical_Hit_Rate

I've continued the investigation in a thread that's abiguously titled "Ranged Critical Hit Rate Testing":
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/113...t-Rate-Testing

Also, you're being awfully offensive/aggressive considering I never claimed LS > JR. They look about even based off this.

[Karbuncle]

I remember reading the information and tests, I just can't for the life of me recall where i saw them.

I mean, I've been in a situation where I've been completely misinformed, but I don't think i've ever looped into a "PROVE IT" Cycle, thats just literally hitting the bottom of the barrel in regards to dignity and denial. Just accept this fact, every day we learn new things, its not too far fetched to assume we still may learn new things in FFXI As well.

So just accept AGI affects Ranged Crit, Its known, where its known? I Seriously can't recall the thread, But i do recall the tests.

I know its in BG Advanced somewhere, But denying it and going in a "NU Uh, PROVE IT" spiral just makes you look foolish. Asking for proof is.. Obviously understandable, but completely denying the possibility because it works against your argument.. makes you look desperate.

[saevel]

It appears that I added the information and a citation to bgwiki on December 5th:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Critical_Hit_Rate

I've continued the investigation in a thread that's abiguously titled "Ranged Critical Hit Rate Testing":
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/113...t-Rate-Testing

Also, you're being awfully offensive/aggressive considering I never claimed LS > JR. They look about even based off this.

Melph's test was on Nov 4th which was after the last time I did a JR build. It's good to finally have some tested info (thanks for the links).

Also it looks like much work needs to be done. If ranged crit is based on AGI as it seems then JR just got knocked down a notch, it's still on the same level as LS but it no longer will beat it and there is zero reason to make a gandiva (which I had already stated).

Again this isn't a Marks vs Archery debate as I've already stated several times that marks wins easily. As a WS JR is still good, just the DEX mod becomes somewhat stupid if AGI is the crit rate determiner for ranged attack.

Also, you're being awfully offensive/aggressive considering I never claimed LS > JR. They look about even based off this

Which is what I've said over and over again, that JR and LS were functionally identical. Yet some people have stated that JR is somehow *gimp*/ *weak* / so on and so forth.

[Mayoyama]

WTF this makes no sense. JR is as powerful as / nearly as (depending on gear and situation) LS for physical ranged WS. WF is highly reliant on some sort of +Fire Damage buff typically seen inside abyssea or voidwatch, it's also magic damage so favors COR by far. Ranged attacks are not "AGI Based", AGI only effects ranged accuracy and RNG has an A+ skill along with five accuracy bonus traits for a total of +60. If anything Ranged Attacks are "STR based" as they get double the fSTR bonus that melees get. The only reason you see more Marks Rangers is that they have more options (Anni / Arma) where as Gandiva is JR spam RNG only, both deal the same amount of damage but Marks has the choice of switching to magic or reduced-hate damage.

Yeah I realised my error with the agi/str thing after I posted but was too tired to log back in and edit the post lol. I guess the issue here is more to do with archery vs marks rather than the ws itself

EDIT: Apologies for causing a derailment of the thread (unintentionally). Its just that I have always liked bows on rng and keep getting told JR and my 90 gandiva (which I made back when lv cap was 90 and bows were viewed as still good) were a waste of my time (and I have on many instances seen JR been beaten by LS)

[Mayoyama]

Back on track with the thread topic, it is undeniable that most if not all relic ws need some form of overhaul... and this also includes several of their aftermaths (which dont last long enough.. even if they were useful). Even with the damage boosts from the higher level versions of the relics they still suck badly

Whether or not Mr Matsui and the dev team will eventually look into these is still to be seen (and this most likely will not be until well after march).

[Nebo]

What? No. It's not perfect or anything, and I agree it could use just a bit more of a boost, but it's actually one of the best relic weapon skills. I know that's not saying much, but it's an improvement over the other ones in the fact that you actually use it, lol.

No. Mercy Stroke is just as weak as all the rest of them (weaker than a lot of them actually). The only job on Mandau that uses MS is THF, and that's not because Mercy Stroke is the cat's ass. It's because stacking it with positionally restricted and cumbersome job abilities can make it not suck some of the time.

Do not mistake that for Mercy Stroke being awesome. The WS itself is crap which is why you see more exenterators and eviscerations coming out of Mandau than Mercy Strokes.

But Byrth said it best, just make these R/M/E dagger WS able to crit natively and problem solved.

[Sabaku]

Death Blossom.

I know, "lolRDM", but for those who enjoy it and utilize it, I feel that we could sacrifice some of the Magic Evasion from the effect for an increase in the damage. Red Mage has lower strength and attack (as well as gear options) compared to the other sword users. The modifiers are lovely, but we cannot utilize them (without sacrificing freedom of a support job) unless Death Blossom's attack power is greater.

[saevel]

No. Mercy Stroke is just as weak as all the rest of them (weaker than a lot of them actually). The only job on Mandau that uses MS is THF, and that's not because Mercy Stroke is the cat's ass. It's because stacking it with positionally restricted and cumbersome job abilities can make it not suck some of the time.

Do not mistake that for Mercy Stroke being awesome. The WS itself is crap which is why you see more exenterators and eviscerations coming out of Mandau than Mercy Strokes.

But Byrth said it best, just make these R/M/E dagger WS able to crit natively and problem solved.

Umm no. MS is actually good as far as WS's go, at least if you have a 99 Mandau. Exten is barely better and really depends on target and gear.

MS
3.0 fTP (4.0 DW) (two hits)
60% STR
+40% damage boost.
AM: +5% Crit (both hands)

Exten
4.0 fTP (5.0 DW) (5 hits)
100% AGI
Inflicts -20 accuracy.

At capped accuracy the chance of landing both hits on MS is 90.25%. The chance of landing all five hits on Exten is 77.37%. The real difference between them is the WSC, Exten's 100% AGI means you can stack the sh!t out of it, MS's 60% STR is nearly as good as you can double dip and get an fSTR bonus (until cap). Stacking MS with SA / TA just produces really pretty numbers, it's strong in it's own right. Those two WS's are pretty much dead even if you apply a 99 Mandau and STR Dagger.