On Red Mage melee...

[Hyrist]

This may get a bit lengthy. I'm not certain. I'll try to condense about eight years worth of thought on this.

While I agree that Melee Gear for Red Mage could use a boost, I have always been under the assumption that it is more Square Enix's premise for Front Line Red Mages that is the problem, and is the reason why we are not getting the gear and updates we, in the eyes of many of the Red Mage players, should receive.

I've maintained for years that a Red Mage's role, be it front line or back, is that of a party catalyst. Opening opportunities for others to shine while manipulating the situation for us to contribute in semi-direct ways, thus our traits for enfeebeling and enhancing.

Before Abyssea, our DoT melee, when properly geared, was a fairly decent. This has fallen behind due to the tip in gear balancing (and the lack of spell/ability support to make it up, which was what enspells served as before). And I firmly believe this should be buffed back up. However, our burst damage has never been all that good, and I've always understood why.

Similar to SE's plans for Dark Knight, Red Mage's front line aspects were angled around the skillchain mechanic after it was implemented, and the evidence mounts to this as the updates kept rolling in. The two largest points in this are more recent, Death Blossom and Magic Burst Bonus. Essentially, we were being designed to be able to open skillchains for others, then burst upon them. The damage we were contributing was divided among the parts we are contributing to.

The problem is, this system was not only archaic but teamwork heavy, and thus slow and inefficient. Nowadays people can self skillchain with relative ease and otherwise spamming skillchains becomes more damage over time efficient. This really limits this utility to low man situations and small parties.

But because the mechanics is there, and Red Mage has the ability to push both Skillchain AND magic bursting damage, SE is going to hesitate to give us melee bonuses. Especially as we've got access to some fairly powerful weapons as well as the Tier IV line of nukes.

In the end, they see Red Mages as 'whole picture' job class rather than measuring and comparing it's parts separately, as we Red Mages tend to do. Which wouldn't be an issue if this system was better streamlined.

I realize there is a lot of call for more "Front Line Utility" but in truth there is very little that can be offered that isn't already there, either offered by Red Mage itself through various subjob settings, or flatly via other jobs. Instead of trying to take Red Mage into another direction, I believe we should hone what we already have in place.

In which case, many of the previously stated ideas, if put into proper balancing, would work very well. For some examples:

Quickcast: The system has already been implemented via Atma. Functioning as a trait or an activated Job ability the ability to occasionally cast a spell without timer would be very helpful to a Red Mage's casting load, freeing up melee time, which is our biggest crux.

Enspell III: Enspells with proper scaling for the 99 level cap are pretty much a must. A question of how they would function could be brought up. (Should it conflict with Sambas, if so, should it come with some sort of native attack bonus, etc.) But unmistakeably they should function similar to the Enspell I line in that it scales off of Enhancing magic at cast. (to a greater degree, of course).

Composure: Why this does not function on every target I do not know. Having it work on any targeted buff even at a reduced effectiveness (which then can still be enhanced with Emperyan gear.) would remove a great deal of the tedium that's involved with having a high casting load support wise. Having the accuracy bonus scale would also be a great boon.

Chainbind: /sam, Dancer, Blue Mage, Puppetmaster all have the ability to self skillchain. Dancer (and now Samurai) has the ability to set up a monster on it's own to skillchain. Making Chainbind an official debuff Red Mage can cast gives him or her the ability to assist himself, and the party, in a mechanic that seems to have been thrown under the bus as a 'do it yourself' function.

After that, some more low hanging fruit in terms of better melee gear across the board would be enjoyed.

Now to clarify I don't expect any of these to be implemented as they are or in the whole, but it comprises a nice wishlist of things that will bring Red mage as a whole up in performance, without pushing away from the enhancing/enfeebeling catalyst that's been in the class's root design.

[Seriha]

I realize there is a lot of call for more "Front Line Utility" but in truth there is very little that can be offered that isn't already there, either offered by Red Mage itself through various subjob settings, or flatly via other jobs. Instead of trying to take Red Mage into another direction, I believe we should hone what we already have in place.

As one of my irks when it comes to RDM, throwing your hands up in submission because you can't think of any ideas is not a stance SE should agree with, nor should we support. Now, have other jobs "stolen" things that would've been nice in RDM's hands? Sure. Does that mean the idea well has gone dry? Of course not. Moreover, I'll pass on just yet more tier ups. Quick magic is also a no-no since it could mean nukes going off in your FC gear and so on, basically sacrificing potency when we're desperate for it just to compete with specialists.

[Tamarsamar]

The problem is, this system was not only archaic but teamwork heavy, and thus slow and inefficient. Nowadays people can self skillchain with relative ease and otherwise spamming skillchains becomes more damage over time efficient. This really limits this utility to low man situations and small parties.

Not to mention, good luck finding anybody who's actually going to co-operate with some random front line geared Red Mage off of the street, in any sense of the word . . .

[Neisan_Quetz]

That would require random front line Red Mages to stop meleeing in full AF/relic even in this day and age. If it isn't a detriment to other duties I'm not gonna knock it but almost every one I see trying to be frontline mage does it badly.

[Duelle]

That would require random front line Red Mages to sotp meleeing in full AF/relic even in this day and age. If it isn't a detriment to other duties I'm not gonna knock it but almost every one I see trying to be frontline mage does it badly.

That approach doesn't really work, hence why I keep saying front line and back line play need to be different from each other for a hybrid like Red Mage.

[Tamarsamar]

That approach doesn't really work, hence why I keep saying front line and back line play need to be different from each other for a hybrid like Red Mage.

In the sense of gear, yes, as that's the limitation of a game that so heavily demands min-maxing.

In the sense of practice, if you ever try to do nothing but swing your sword with maybe the occasional cure or self-buff, you're doing it horribly wrong. (Unfortunately you can't say the same thing for doing nothing but spellcasting, but then, that's why this topic exists, no?)

[Hyrist]

As one of my irks when it comes to RDM, throwing your hands up in submission because you can't think of any ideas is not a stance SE should agree with, nor should we support. Now, have other jobs "stolen" things that would've been nice in RDM's hands? Sure. Does that mean the idea well has gone dry? Of course not. Moreover, I'll pass on just yet more tier ups. Quick magic is also a no-no since it could mean nukes going off in your FC gear and so on, basically sacrificing potency when we're desperate for it just to compete with specialists.

A few falacies in there Seriha

On 'new ideas':

It's not throwing your hands up for the sake of lack of ideas. It's a matter of shifting the entire direction of a job based off of one crux utility. You're looking for a golden update which I say is just plain naive. Work with the system we have and modify it so it performs better, instead of looking for the 'shiney utility' that's going to change everyone minds about RDM front lining.

As far as getting more Tier ups, that is inevitable. Having what we're more or less designed to get function in a way that better suits us in the manners we would desire would be both more realistic, and easier to apply than flat out inventing a new mechanic. Besides, I've already listed a couple 'borrows' already. They just lean more towards the Hybrid approach, utalizing our spells to assist our melee, and proving more ability to streamline our casting which has always been our trend as a job. I'd rather see them preform that aspect correctly and have it work, then scrap it for a new idea that's even more likely to fail.

Quick Cast and Nukes:

It's seriously not hard to place your spell activation at the end of a gearswap macro instead of at the beginning. So your argument against quick cast is flat out null. Though, having control over when your quick cast operates was something I left open as an option for a reason. Either one would function well, an the trait would require only a minor shift in macro usage.

Not to mention, good luck finding anybody who's actually going to co-operate with some random front line geared Red Mage off of the street, in any sense of the word . . .

I'm surprised this statement even comes up, given the current state of the game. Small group activities dominate with only a few 'random pickups' really applying. At this point in the game, you're mostly playing with your friends or long time shell-mates. It's not nearly as difficult to get a bit of co-operation in small time content.

Trying to use the mechanic in huge Abyssea parties, however, just isn't going to work so well.

In the sense of gear, yes, as that's the limitation of a game that so heavily demands min-maxing.

In the sense of practice, if you ever try to do nothing but swing your sword with maybe the occasional cure or self-buff, you're doing it horribly wrong. (Unfortunately you can't say the same thing for doing nothing but spellcasting, but then, that's why this topic exists, no?)

Speaking truthfully, the two roles between front and back line Red Mage are different, in practice. Instead of becoming the primary responsibility for said roles, you are instead filling the gaps, or lightening the burden of your healer and support, as well as teaming up to assist your damage dealers and CC usage. Its a variable job that functions more on improvisation than a set duty, and that's the benefit and curse of it.

The Red Mage changes with the moment's needs, instead of trying to be a consistent. Again, the situation is archaic, but effective in smaller groups. In larger style events we have other methods of levying our trades. But all of this can be streamlined as a whole which, when paired with an increase of melee gear and a touch more healing utility, should be adequate to bringing Red Mage's various roles up to par, not just any single one because of personal preference.

I love Melee, I will always gear and work towards being as affective as I can be in it. But the sting Red Mage feels in terms of effectiveness isn't JUST melee anymore, it's across the board. We have an opportunity to bring Red Mage up to the hybrid it was meant to be utilized as. However, I don't beleive over-focusing on increasing just our melee aspects by creating a specific front line utility for Red Mage is an appropriate answer, as it ignores those who prefer a back line style.

We HAVE front line utilities, be it our old archaic methods (Skillchain opening + Burst), the newer ones that are less widely spread (WS procs, Elemental WS lights), or borrowed through use of subjob (/Dnc step/spell stacking, /War WS procing, /Blu or /Nin soloing or off tanking.) We can add to these if we want, but we're not going to have any better success with them as we did the current ones unless our core functions are further streamlined and better scaled. This starts at our casting and has to bleed into a better gear selection.

However I am of a belief that the streamlining itself will better enable front line usage, in which case the utility we're clamoring for would just be a placebo effect to attract the attention of the common mentality.

This desire for the "Thing that Only a Red Mage can do." Seems to be more focused on having the spotlight effect than a real means of addressing the rudimentary 'hybrid issue' that's been the ongoing argument about Red Mages in front line for years and years.

[Duelle]

In the sense of practice, if you ever try to do nothing but swing your sword with maybe the occasional cure or self-buff, you're doing it horribly wrong. (Unfortunately you can't say the same thing for doing nothing but spellcasting, but then, that's why this topic exists, no?)

With the current design and what is currently on our plate, yes. After a number of changes that kills redundancy and opens up magic combat, no.

A red mage in the front shouldn't be worrying about buff cycles and main healing. The problem is that we don't have the numbers (as in DPS) to back that choice up at the moment. The shift in mentality would be completely possible were it not for that.

[Seriha]

A few falacies in there Seriha

Hardly. Giving us more of the same, as indicative of tier ups or not giving us new "golden update"ish things will not change where we are. Cure V would just put us back toward pink magery. Procs aside, if people wanted nukes, they'll be going for BLMs and SCHs first and there's no way we'll be getting T5s unless maybe the cap goes to 115 some day or something. I simply cannot see T3 Slow/Para/Blind/Bio/Dia happening because the T2s are merits, so enfeebles are pretty much left to new idea territory. Without a "golden update", you've more or less doomed us to mediocrity before even considering equipment issues.

And Quick Cast is still bad if random. Most of my spells begin by swapping into my fast cast gear (I don't bother with barspells) and switch to potency gear within the cast. You're basically telling me to give up at least 20% FC for something that, at present, maybe goes off 5-10% of the time with the right gear or atma. No thanks. I know casting burden is a problem for our melee, but whatever we get has to be constant and not situationally niche.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Hardly. Giving us more of the same, as indicative of tier ups or not giving us new "golden update"ish things will not change where we are. Cure V would just put us back toward pink magery. Procs aside, if people wanted nukes, they'll be going for BLMs and SCHs first and there's no way we'll be getting T5s unless maybe the cap goes to 115 some day or something. I simply cannot see T3 Slow/Para/Blind/Bio/Dia happening because the T2s are merits, so enfeebles are pretty much left to new idea territory. Without a "golden update", you've more or less doomed us to mediocrity before even considering equipment issues.

And Quick Cast is still bad if random. Most of my spells begin by swapping into my fast cast gear (I don't bother with barspells) and switch to potency gear within the cast. You're basically telling me to give up at least 20% FC for something that, at present, maybe goes off 5-10% of the time with the right gear or atma. No thanks. I know casting burden is a problem for our melee, but whatever we get has to be constant and not situationally niche.

The draw to quickcast is the instant casting, and reset recast timer.

Whether the spell goes of it fast cast or not you can recast it instantly again straight after.