On Red Mage melee...

[Greatguardian]

You sound very unhappy. Have you considered leveling another class that might be better suited to what you're looking for?

I wonder this a lot myself. A lot of people on these forums, Red Mage or otherwise, seem preoccupied with what they thought a job would be, or what they think a job should be, and not what a job actually is. Whether it's a comparison to other Final Fantasy games, facets of in-game lore, or simply the character Archetypes that each job name represents, people want the game to change to reflect their vision rather than simply pursuing the class, or the game, which has what they are looking for.

FFXI isn't the only game in the world, Red Mage is not the only job in the world. I'm not trying to push people off, but really, if the game itself is just not fun for them, they should try other games. If a job is not something they envisioned, then they should try other jobs. As far as Mage/Melee swordsmen go, Red Mage definitely takes after the Mage side while Blue Mage takes after the melee side. Have any of the RdMelee enthusiasts tried out Blue Mage? It seems to basically be everything you're asking for, just with a different color in its name.

I know some people have their sort of sentimental attachment to one job or another, and that's fine. But realize that that's all that is. It's a sentimental attachment to the color red. It doesn't have to do with you liking the job itself, because it's obvious that Red Mage in its current state is not making you happy. You just like the name. Or the idea of Red Mage.

I'd honestly really suggest Dancer or Blue Mage to a lot of Rdmelee enthusiasts. Blue mage especially, though I'll warn you right now, as much attention as the job's had in Abyssea, it's practically worthless outside and its time in the limelight is most definitely fading fast. Take that for what you will.

[Seriha]

Could satisfaction be found in other jobs? Sure. I like playing BLU. I don't think it's useless outside of Abyssea as you've repeated multiple times now, but I also believe that similar, yet different can be achieved. Ignoring it won't make that happen. Quitting FFXI won't make that happen. You might not like the concept of a paying subscription justifying a voice, but if at any point in your life you've ever hoped for the most of your dollar, then we're on some common ground. That said, surely you've realized by now that you're not going to change the minds of those who've been at this for a while. Some might give up the fight, sure, and I can't blame them when you get broadsided by your fellow players on one end and given the silent treatment by SE on the other. And while RDM has been a personal focus for me for a long time now, I'm a believer that SE has been universally too timid when it comes to adjusting all jobs, exception being the two-handed update. While the RNG "nerf" certainly wasn't handled as best as it could've been, it also happens to be a job where a conceptual point was being violated with the job often meleeing more than shooting. SE just happened to have the balls to act on it and guide players toward their vision, awkward as it still is with ammo expense and enmity issues complicating the distance game.

[Duelle]

A lot of people on these forums, Red Mage or otherwise, seem preoccupied with what they thought a job would be, or what they think a job should be, and not what a job actually is. Whether it's a comparison to other Final Fantasy games, facets of in-game lore, or simply the character Archetypes that each job name represents, people want the game to change to reflect their vision rather than simply pursuing the class, or the game, which has what they are looking for.

I was waiting for you to draw this card.

It's less about personal vision and more about what the archetypes represent and how they play in the context of MMOs. You'd be raising eyebrows if DRK was suddenly turned into a healer and PLD was turned into a buff spammer. All hell would break loose if SAM had it's WS-oriented playstyle removed and replaced with relying on daggers. THFs would riot if they suddenly became an enfeebling class with no melee abilities. BLMs would probably crash servers if they were turned into a HoT class with their nukes heavily de-emphasized. That's is how some of us in the melee camp feel in relation to our job. I'm personally fine with RDM having the option to be oriented for support if a player wants to play as such. What I'm not fine with is that everything else is downright useless and makes for a very incomplete hybrid.

FFXI isn't the only game in the world, Red Mage is not the only job in the world. I'm not trying to push people off, but really, if the game itself is just not fun for them, they should try other games. If a job is not something they envisioned, then they should try other jobs.

Sorry, but some of us aren't the type to look away from a problem and forgetting about it. By your logic, every paladin in the Ret movement (of which I was also a part of) that wanted our spec to become group and raid-worthy should have just rerolled warriors like so many of the trolls that plagued our threads wanted us to. Had we given up, Ret would have never gotten the much-needed fixes to get it to work as the Paladin class' melee spec. The same thing is very possible with Red Mage, seeing as this is a repeat of the exact same scenario in every way, including baseline class design, insults hurled at the melee camp, infighting within the same class and even people like you telling us that we're either a) doin' it wrong or b) asking us to reroll.

It seems to basically be everything you're asking for, just with a different color in its name.

From a mechanics perspective BLU is decent. I don't like how it plays, nor what the class entails. Besides, a scimitar and pointy shoes don't even come close to replacing the pimp hat and rapier.

You're really grasping at straws if you're trying to bring sentimental attachment into this conversation. That'd be like calling the SMN players that want to improve their class to be more than just BPs and +Pet: Stat Gear idiots, ignoring SE's screw up that pretty much ruined the job's image built up from every FF that featured Summoners prior to XI coming out. They obviously should also change jobs to something else and leave the problem unresolved.

[Gokku]

i wonder if the coin was flipped and rdm had plenty off DD ability but damn near no useful spells would the same argument not be had about "make our spells better" "why cant we cast more then cure 3" etc etc.

[Seriha]

As someone who believes DRK's magical aspects should be brought to meaningful levels, which is basically the reverse of RDM's situation, yes, I'd more than likely be advocating improvements. I wouldn't be able to tell you if the end result would reflect the RDM of now, but it's not hard to see DRK has a different direction than RDM.

[Duelle]

i wonder if the coin was flipped and rdm had plenty of DD ability but damn near no useful spells would the same argument not be had about "make our spells better" "why cant we cast more then cure 3" etc etc.

Depends on the mechanics already in place and what the job already brings to the table. This is a what if, so could go either way, I would think.

[Rayik]

i wonder if the coin was flipped and rdm had plenty off DD ability but damn near no useful spells would the same argument not be had about "make our spells better" "why cant we cast more then cure 3" etc etc.

This is a good question. For me, I wouldn't be complaining. Had my spell list been chopped in half, but I were an able-bodied and accepted melee job, I'd still be fine. As a support mage, I have absolutely no want or need to have spells on nearly the same level as any specialist job. I'd be fine with Cure 3, en-spells, and a few debuffs.

<incoming other FF reference> When I played FF1, my RDM in that game was a melee-first, mage-second, since my WHM was doing the curing, and the BLM was doing the nuking. But back then, spell resources were extremely limited, so you didn't cast a spell unless you HAD to, since there was no "resting" in dungeons.

[Rayik]

I wonder this a lot myself. A lot of people on these forums, Red Mage or otherwise, seem preoccupied with what they thought a job would be, or what they think a job should be, and not what a job actually is. Whether it's a comparison to other Final Fantasy games, facets of in-game lore, or simply the character Archetypes that each job name represents, people want the game to change to reflect their vision rather than simply pursuing the class, or the game, which has what they are looking for.

FFXI isn't the only game in the world, Red Mage is not the only job in the world. I'm not trying to push people off, but really, if the game itself is just not fun for them, they should try other games. If a job is not something they envisioned, then they should try other jobs. As far as Mage/Melee swordsmen go, Red Mage definitely takes after the Mage side while Blue Mage takes after the melee side. Have any of the RdMelee enthusiasts tried out Blue Mage? It seems to basically be everything you're asking for, just with a different color in its name.

I know some people have their sort of sentimental attachment to one job or another, and that's fine. But realize that that's all that is. It's a sentimental attachment to the color red. It doesn't have to do with you liking the job itself, because it's obvious that Red Mage in its current state is not making you happy. You just like the name. Or the idea of Red Mage.

I'd honestly really suggest Dancer or Blue Mage to a lot of Rdmelee enthusiasts. Blue mage especially, though I'll warn you right now, as much attention as the job's had in Abyssea, it's practically worthless outside and its time in the limelight is most definitely fading fast. Take that for what you will.

If the only defining characteristic of RDM you can see is the color red, maybe you are the one who should be playing a different job. By your logic, if all you want to do is stand in the back line and cast spells, why don't you play SCH? WHM? BLM? Only difference is the name, right?

How do you know that your vision of what RDM is, is the "correct" one? As a hybrid job, we are free to interpret this job as we please, especially considering the source material(our AF is named after swordsman for crying out loud). I'm not even talking about older FF's this time, I'm talking about in-game, FFXI-specific references(AF2 and 3 gear, Relic/Mythic weapons, etc). I don't see BLM, WHM, or SCH's listed on gear such as Atheling Mantle, Dusk gear, Brisk Mask, Calmecac Trousers, etc.

The job needs fixed. Our main melee weapon is sword, yet we get no decent or magic-based sword WS's. But, we do get the dagger ones... This makes no sense. Everything is not fine. Sticking our heads in the sand is the worst possible thing we can do right now.

[TybudX]

How do you know that your vision of what RDM is, is the "correct" one?

Because RDM performs infinitely better as a soloer, a tank, or a back line job than it ever has as a melee. Seems really obvious to people who don't have their heads up their asses.

[Greatguardian]

Wow.

Me: "People have a sentimental attachment to the character class, or an attachment to the archetypes that are represented by the class names."

Duelle: "No, it's not sentimental. People have an attachment to the archetypes."

Herp bloody freaking derp. Who cares what the archetype is? Who cares what the class is called? Would you feel better if they just called it Thaurtamage? Conjurer? Pugilist? There is a reason they changed those names for FF14. Why is that? Because certain FFXI players absolutely refused to look at anything beyond a classes name to determine what it "Should" be doing.

Forget that the job is called Red Mage. Forget that it's your first job, your favorite job, your only job, whatever it is. Forget what Red Mage is in other games. Forget the archetype that Red Mage represents. Let's call it SpankWustler. Now, I see that SpankWustler is already an incredibly potent magical job with an immense amount of freedom granted it by its gear access and the game's ability to switch gear sets on the fly.

I like SpankWustler. I do not care that the armor is called FrankfurterFlipper's Tunic. I obviously do not flip frankfurters as a combat mechanic. But maybe I should. I mean, the armor is called FrankfurterFlipper's Attire. What the hell is wrong with this game and its design if I can have all of this armor named after Frankfurter flipping and not actually flip Frankfurters? Who cares that SpankWustler is an awesome job with some of the most useful artifact, relic, and Empyrean armor in the entire game. When you call a set Frankfurterflipper's Attire, you better bloody include a Frankfurter flipping mechanic so help me god.