On Red Mage melee...

[wish12oz]

Not really, because in both of the set-ups above as long as everyone doesn't suck you should already be at the point where you are waiting on the Colibri to respawn anyway.

Suck less and kill wivres and colibri

[wish12oz]

I always liked
DD DD BRD BRD COR Healer
But it required very good DDs!

[Greatguardian]

I always liked
DD DD BRD BRD COR Healer
But it required very good DDs!

I was the Cor for one of these once. It was absolutely divine. I wish I parsed it. Rather, I think I might've, let's see.

Edit: Okay, yeah, I still have some of it. This is ye olde 2009, MJSP.



If a Corsair, fully buffed, was doing 50%~ the damage of the DDs, there is no way in hell that a RDM is going to be doing anywhere near 80%.

[Seriha]

As for the entire "why take 80% when you can have 100%", it's a trap. The argument actually has no meaning because it preemptively subtracts from the RDM and limits them to "80%" while ignoring what they gain. In effect it's saying a RDM without MP, without Dia, without Cure IV, sleeps, are all only "80%" and that the other nameless DD is given all it's options / ability's at 100%. RDM's sacrifice damage potential for utility. Back in the day's of "6-man" groups I would do...

It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster. They just want people who will concentrate on dishing hurt. Concentrating solely on that task, there's no bones about it, RDM fell behind due to native characteristics and gear options.

So, while Abyssea has changed EXPing dynamics from 6 to a possible 18, that 5/6 dilemma still remains for smaller events like BCs. When hitting the search list for a DD, RDM won't be on the radar outside of Azure kills. If the job is supposed to be suitably versatile, it's failing in that task if it will never be invited for an aspect of that versatility. Haters gonna hate, claiming that's how it should be or nothing could be done without godmode, but that only shows their lack of thinking.

[Duelle]

It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster. They just want people who will concentrate on dishing hurt. Concentrating solely on that task, there's no bones about it, RDM fell behind due to native characteristics and gear options.

This is the crux of my damage argument. You're not looking for the utility as part of the package. Utility generally plays the role of "well, that really helped" when the party is in a pinch. It is never a point of consideration when putting the party together. The "here and the now" of the job/class is what is measured when building the group. In the old days we also saw the variation, which was "good groups don't run into X, so Y piece of utility is moot. Now get in the back and refresh me".

If the job is supposed to be suitably versatile, it's failing in that task if it will never be invited for an aspect of that versatility. Haters gonna hate, claiming that's how it should be or nothing could be done without godmode, but that only shows their lack of thinking.

Well, yes. The devs seem to be bent on giving everyone very different roles for the sake of making the jobs different rather than create templates or criteria that allow said jobs to partake on certain roles.

The main issue is the fact that the hybrids become tricky (but not impossible) to balance at that point. I wouldn't mind seeing multiple roles open up for RDM, BLU, PLD and DRK, but the developers seem to take issue with that for some reason.

[Seriha]

You're assuming the hypothetical party wasn't 2x BRD, healer, 2x DDs already. Overall, the 'lazy BRD' role was the one who'd just sit at the camp while the other pulled. Would you get the occasional double pullers? Sure, but then that also starts stepping into outside healer territory, which I dare say wasn't common in all the time I spent poking peckers and such. So, yeah, find something else in your unerring fascination with me to nitpick.

[Eeek]

So, yeah, find something else in your unerring fascination with me to nitpick.

It's not my fault you regularly put forth incorrect claims or misworded statements.

When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

The implication of this statement is that said hypothetical party already has one BRD. Otherwise, why would said party, assuming they wanted a real merit party, even consider inviting a 'lazy' supporting BRD? They'd instead invite a pulling BRD. If the party already had two BRDs, no sensible party would ever consider adding a 3rd BRD over a 3rd DD or a COR.

You're playing semantic games to backpedal away from an implied misstatement that 'a 2nd supporting BRD is less useful than an additional DD'. It's simply not true, especially at the Nyzul Mamool and MMJSP North camps where the 2nd BRD's support capacities from /WHM were more useful. Unlike Colibri, Mamool were definitely capable of dealing real damage.

And yes, it wasn't uncommon for the 2nd BRD to help pull in exceptional merit parties. Hell, even as a single BRD I intentionally and regularly linked mobs just to give myself an extra 5-10 seconds at camp. On that point, how does double pulling even relate to outside healers in the first place?

[Aurara]

No...it's not being a lazy brd if you help cure the DDs/sleep incoming mobs so that the other brd can keep pulling/give them time to cast minuets(in my case i would have the "lazy brd" as you put it sing marches because they're always at camp). You dont need an outside healer unless its a mule or something, but these kinds of parties certainly weren't "rare" as you claimed them to be.

[saevel]

It was determined a long long LONG time ago that 3xDD + 2x support + 1x healer was the optimal setup as 4x DD 1xsupport 1x healer is simply too much of a burden on the healer / support and thus forces people to play defensibly.

It's hardly a trap. When your party is 5/6 people and it's time to fill that sixth spot with damage, it's not the time to be looking for emergency cures, a Dia your healer or 'lazy bard' could throw up, or even a secondary haster.

False argument. You failed to define the 5/6 nor what the required roles were of the 6th spot, and thus you can dictate a false argument with whatever rules / conclusions you want. That is dishonest.

A RDM/NIN will produce more total damage output then a BRD/WHM, this isn't even up for debate. The first BRD is already singing march x 2, this leaves the 2nd BRD to sing Attack songs and refresh the healer. Dia III is 15% defense down, or 17.6% attack up. At 500 attack every DD would receive the equivalent of 88 attack, at 600 attack they would receive 105.6 and at 700 attack (now) they would receive 123.2 attack. This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice. The only jobs that could do similar were COR (buffs + ranged shots) and DNC (haste samba + melee damage + curing). A melee BRD/NIN could technically do similar, there was actually a small following amongst the BRD's to do this because they saw the same opportunity we did.

Anyhow as I've said before, this is all merit parties at 75, which don't exist anymore and thus the above points are moot. If we ~really~ wanted to get technical a RDM now can do something nobody else could, and that's provide a 17.6% attack buff to every DD in the alliance. I do this all the time on abyssal super boss's and tier III / IV VWNMs. This is where I was really hoping SE would go with, provide us with self-buffs that would enable us to lower the targets Def / VIT / Agi / Defense / Magic Defense / Magic Evasion and so forth. In this way we would enable the entire alliance to perform better, while also dealing damage.

[Eeek]

This combined with the 80% melee damage easily surpassed double attack buffs to three DD's. Don't even attempt to argue this, it's already been demonstrated both on paper and in practice.

Sorry, it will be argued. Sure, RDM/NIN may approach 80% of a average DD, but they will never be in the same ballpark as real DDs that are well-geared and well-played.

It's why Hyrist hasn't logged on for two days and counting.