On Red Mage melee...

[Supersun]

I'll continue to disagree with you here. Utility never, ever, makes up for lacking damage. It's a nice addition and contributes as both flavor and job/class identity, but it won't make up for lacking damage.

Now that's just not true, it all depends on how much utility and what type.

I mean Haste Samba is utility and it adds quite a bit more additional damage. More damage then SE would have normally been comfortable adding to Dancer (and they already add quite a bit to that job)

[Duelle]

Now that's just not true, it all depends on how much utility and what type.

I mean Haste Samba is utility and it adds quite a bit more additional damage. More damage then SE would have normally been comfortable adding to Dancer (and they already add quite a bit to that job)

Not to be crass, because I want to be proven wrong on that point, but I'll respond to that by saying "been there, done that, seen it fall flat on its face save for one situation out of over twenty". And it still didn't convince people to allow the class in question to front line if they wanted to.

Granted, this is me being jaded by past experience, but I've seen little to no evidence of the contrary. I'd like to see SE prove me wrong, though.

[Seriha]

Well, I can't say the manifesto is promising when it comes to our martial aspect.

[Hyrist]

Past experience, however, is kind of irrelevant in this angle of game.

The only real dividing line that keeps Red Mages in the back or things they can be allowed in the front in is pretty much the assumed 'difficulty' of mobs. These are the same arguments that kept lesser dedicated DD classes from meleeing.

I'll be as clear as possible of where I believe RDM's Melee allowance should be. The discretion of whether or not a Red Mage should be allowed to melee should be, more or less, in direct correlation with their Blue Mage Cousins. Meaning, if the Blue Mage hesitates to take out his swords to TP with, and sticks to his spells, Red Mage shoulden't be thinking about it.

Below that point, however. Whether through damage increase or Utility gains, RDM should have no issues taking to the front line.

Dulle believes this should come primarily through damage. I believe Utility is the more important aspect, and our Damage aspects are in need of only minor improvements comparatively.

There is the argument about Red Mage as a Support/Healer role. However, this is mainly a preference situation. Again, most situations in which this would be a heavy discussion would call for a White Mage as a main healer anyways. And again, if BLU hesitates to melee it, we'd be in the back anyways. So it all boils down to what jobs you bring to a situation.

inb4 'play [a different job] then'

As much as I understand the concept of putting your best foot forward for the team, there needs to be some allowance in that for personal tastes and styles.

That, and simply switching jobs will not fix this glaring problem.

If Red Mages are going to get teased with new high end gear toys, they need to be given an acceptable use for them.

[Hyrist]

Well, I can't say the manifesto is promising when it comes to our martial aspect.

We'll see how inadequate the things in the current .dats are first, honestly. If there is one thing I've figured about their updating is, is that the developers really don't keep a constant development pattern on any particular job. Rather that they work in 'projects' then analyze the success/failure of that project to gain ideas for the next patch.

[Seriha]

We'll see how inadequate the things in the current .dats are first, honestly. If there is one thing I've figured about their updating is, is that the developers really don't keep a constant development pattern on any particular job. Rather that they work in 'projects' then analyze the success/failure of that project to gain ideas for the next patch.

I'd believe you if T2s still weren't broken.

[Ironside]

I'll be as clear as possible of where I believe RDM's Melee allowance should be. The discretion of whether or not a Red Mage should be allowed to melee should be, more or less, in direct correlation with their Blue Mage Cousins. Meaning, if the Blue Mage hesitates to take out his swords to TP with, and sticks to his spells, Red Mage shoulden't be thinking about it.

I kinda agree with this, but I'd also base it more on the multitasking skill of the RDM in question. If they can melee while still maintaining their buffs and debuffs as though they weren't, I'd say for them to go ahead and melee; extra damage is extra damage. If they're slipping on their buff order though, I'd say they should stay back; I agree that utility is the more important aspect of RDM, so if the player is sacrificing utility for damage, they probably need to back off of the front lines.

That's how I see it, anyway. Feel free to nitpick that apart, all.

[Hyrist]

I'm not holding too high of hopes either Seriha, to be honest. But I always get giddy over new toys.

I kinda agree with this, but I'd also base it more on the multitasking skill of the RDM in question. If they can melee while still maintaining their buffs and debuffs as though they weren't, I'd say for them to go ahead and melee; extra damage is extra damage. If they're slipping on their buff order though, I'd say they should stay back; I agree that utility is the more important aspect of RDM, so if the player is sacrificing utility for damage, they probably need to back off of the front lines.

Really depends on the situation really.

Let's use the example of Dynamis in it's current states. I take to the front lines to assist with Procing. I'll keep refreshes going as a high priority (note: this can get difficult if I'm the primary mage proc or not throwing into the mage party, if that's the case, I lean more towards back line and focus on that), but not hastes, as killing the monster faster with larger groups can wind up with the mob dead before the proc hits. And as the drop rate has such a severe difference between the two, you kind of want to discourage it.

Haste itself, outside Dynamis, depends on who else has the spell available, and how taxed is their MP vs the Refresh II you're giving them. I'll usually work that out between me and the other support jobs. As more and more Red Mages get their AF3 pieces and their +2, the easier it is for RDM to maintain buffs had have time for other things, so when that becomes more prominent on my end I'll have no problem taking more of that back. I tend to thoroughly enjoy multitasking myself.

However if I'm the sole healer? Weapons sheathed. That's usually not the case, however.

[Zirael]

Well, I can't say the manifesto is promising when it comes to our martial aspect.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...D%93-Manifesto
Take a good look at the pictures. RDM is the only one not wielding any meele weapon (even BRD has Twashtar). If you had any doubts till now, it should give you a hint which direction RDM is heading.
Sorry for semi-provocative text, but according to SE, we're supposed to make others demi-gods with our Haste and Refresh II, that's it. Enhancing & Enfeebling, RDM's new buzzwords

[Hyrist]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...D%93-Manifesto
Take a good look at the pictures. RDM is the only one not wielding any meele weapon (even BRD has Twashtar). If you had any doubts till now, it should give you a hint which direction RDM is heading.
Sorry for semi-provocative text, but according to SE, we're supposed to make others demi-gods with our Haste and Refresh II, that's it. Enhancing & Enfeebling, RDM's new buzzwords

Funny, that, because I don't see Dancer or Blue Mage with their weapons either...