On Red Mage melee...

[Hyrist]

Well, I can't say the manifesto is promising when it comes to our martial aspect.

We'll see how inadequate the things in the current .dats are first, honestly. If there is one thing I've figured about their updating is, is that the developers really don't keep a constant development pattern on any particular job. Rather that they work in 'projects' then analyze the success/failure of that project to gain ideas for the next patch.

[Seriha]

We'll see how inadequate the things in the current .dats are first, honestly. If there is one thing I've figured about their updating is, is that the developers really don't keep a constant development pattern on any particular job. Rather that they work in 'projects' then analyze the success/failure of that project to gain ideas for the next patch.

I'd believe you if T2s still weren't broken.

[Zirael]

Well, I can't say the manifesto is promising when it comes to our martial aspect.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...D%93-Manifesto
Take a good look at the pictures. RDM is the only one not wielding any meele weapon (even BRD has Twashtar). If you had any doubts till now, it should give you a hint which direction RDM is heading.
Sorry for semi-provocative text, but according to SE, we're supposed to make others demi-gods with our Haste and Refresh II, that's it. Enhancing & Enfeebling, RDM's new buzzwords

[Hyrist]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...D%93-Manifesto
Take a good look at the pictures. RDM is the only one not wielding any meele weapon (even BRD has Twashtar). If you had any doubts till now, it should give you a hint which direction RDM is heading.
Sorry for semi-provocative text, but according to SE, we're supposed to make others demi-gods with our Haste and Refresh II, that's it. Enhancing & Enfeebling, RDM's new buzzwords

Funny, that, because I don't see Dancer or Blue Mage with their weapons either...

[Zirael]

Funny, that, because I don't see Dancer or Blue Mage with their weapons either...

Dancer has some curved dagger on front side (very clearly visible) and Twashtar partially hidden on the back side. Blue Mage has some black pointy thingy around where a Mithra's tail would be. Unless I'm mistaken and that's not a thin sword.

[Hyrist]

Past experience, however, is kind of irrelevant in this angle of game.

The only real dividing line that keeps Red Mages in the back or things they can be allowed in the front in is pretty much the assumed 'difficulty' of mobs. These are the same arguments that kept lesser dedicated DD classes from meleeing.

I'll be as clear as possible of where I believe RDM's Melee allowance should be. The discretion of whether or not a Red Mage should be allowed to melee should be, more or less, in direct correlation with their Blue Mage Cousins. Meaning, if the Blue Mage hesitates to take out his swords to TP with, and sticks to his spells, Red Mage shoulden't be thinking about it.

Below that point, however. Whether through damage increase or Utility gains, RDM should have no issues taking to the front line.

Dulle believes this should come primarily through damage. I believe Utility is the more important aspect, and our Damage aspects are in need of only minor improvements comparatively.

There is the argument about Red Mage as a Support/Healer role. However, this is mainly a preference situation. Again, most situations in which this would be a heavy discussion would call for a White Mage as a main healer anyways. And again, if BLU hesitates to melee it, we'd be in the back anyways. So it all boils down to what jobs you bring to a situation.

inb4 'play [a different job] then'

As much as I understand the concept of putting your best foot forward for the team, there needs to be some allowance in that for personal tastes and styles.

That, and simply switching jobs will not fix this glaring problem.

If Red Mages are going to get teased with new high end gear toys, they need to be given an acceptable use for them.

[Ironside]

I'll be as clear as possible of where I believe RDM's Melee allowance should be. The discretion of whether or not a Red Mage should be allowed to melee should be, more or less, in direct correlation with their Blue Mage Cousins. Meaning, if the Blue Mage hesitates to take out his swords to TP with, and sticks to his spells, Red Mage shoulden't be thinking about it.

I kinda agree with this, but I'd also base it more on the multitasking skill of the RDM in question. If they can melee while still maintaining their buffs and debuffs as though they weren't, I'd say for them to go ahead and melee; extra damage is extra damage. If they're slipping on their buff order though, I'd say they should stay back; I agree that utility is the more important aspect of RDM, so if the player is sacrificing utility for damage, they probably need to back off of the front lines.

That's how I see it, anyway. Feel free to nitpick that apart, all.

[Duelle]

Past experience, however, is kind of irrelevant in this angle of game.

Seeing that the "problem" is not exclusive to this game, I beg to differ.

I'll be as clear as possible of where I believe RDM's Melee allowance should be. The discretion of whether or not a Red Mage should be allowed to melee should be, more or less, in direct correlation with their Blue Mage Cousins. Meaning, if the Blue Mage hesitates to take out his swords to TP with, and sticks to his spells, Red Mage shouldn't be thinking about it.

I agree here. So long as the damage between both is comparable and surpass the tertiary benefits (buffs and enfeebling). Right now Blue Mage has high-damaging spells and potent enfeebles to fall back on when they can't swing, and all RDM has left is pretty much cures and buffs under the same conditions.

Duelle believes this should come primarily through damage. I believe Utility is the more important aspect, and our Damage aspects are in need of only minor improvements comparatively.

I'm fine with wanting utility, but I simply feel that it alone will not make up for lacking damage nor will it justify front-lining. Ideally, utility and damage should both be buffed to some regard, even mixing said utility with front-lining to make the transition smoother.

[Hyrist]

I'm not holding too high of hopes either Seriha, to be honest. But I always get giddy over new toys.

I kinda agree with this, but I'd also base it more on the multitasking skill of the RDM in question. If they can melee while still maintaining their buffs and debuffs as though they weren't, I'd say for them to go ahead and melee; extra damage is extra damage. If they're slipping on their buff order though, I'd say they should stay back; I agree that utility is the more important aspect of RDM, so if the player is sacrificing utility for damage, they probably need to back off of the front lines.

Really depends on the situation really.

Let's use the example of Dynamis in it's current states. I take to the front lines to assist with Procing. I'll keep refreshes going as a high priority (note: this can get difficult if I'm the primary mage proc or not throwing into the mage party, if that's the case, I lean more towards back line and focus on that), but not hastes, as killing the monster faster with larger groups can wind up with the mob dead before the proc hits. And as the drop rate has such a severe difference between the two, you kind of want to discourage it.

Haste itself, outside Dynamis, depends on who else has the spell available, and how taxed is their MP vs the Refresh II you're giving them. I'll usually work that out between me and the other support jobs. As more and more Red Mages get their AF3 pieces and their +2, the easier it is for RDM to maintain buffs had have time for other things, so when that becomes more prominent on my end I'll have no problem taking more of that back. I tend to thoroughly enjoy multitasking myself.

However if I'm the sole healer? Weapons sheathed. That's usually not the case, however.

[Hyrist]

No, that would be the mithra's tail



It's called animation effects, it's nothing new. You can't see weapons during them normally.

Dancer's weapons can be seen because they're sheathed, which would indicate the Red Mage has a weapon drawn.

Note the staves on WHM, BLM, and SCH.