On Red Mage melee...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I fear if you guys get the changes you want, that I will end up no longer enjoying my favorite job.

Red Mage needs at most some tweaking, not a complete overhaul/redesign. Please don't destroy the job I've known and loved since I first logged in.

Asking for what RDM is supposed to be IS NOT changing the job. You want a cure bot or enhancer level WHM.

[cidbahamut]

How is asking for changes not changing the job? Especially when they're on the scale some of you folks are suggesting.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

How is asking for changes not changing the job? Especially when they're on the scale some of you folks are suggesting.

I'm asking for melee to be improved to at least a decent level, will that allow us to Melee in parties? probably not, but melee is part of RDM.

If you're cool with enhancing and curing go on ahead, I'm not stopping you, nor am I asking SE to remove those aspects, only asking to make melee decent like a RDM's White Magic and Black Magic is.

Asking for small changes does NOT instantly change what a job is, almost every other job has been getting the changes in some way or another with no impact on the jobs primary duties.

[Hyrist]

Every Red Mage has an individual image of where the job "should" go, or "should be", Cid. Don't let the extremity of the ideas get you panicked.

What I want, personally, is more support for the iconic Red Mage throughout. This means giving Red Mage a debuff method to regard TP attacks - the only section now we cannot directly impact, and a utility that allows us to take the front lines.

No offense to Dulle, but he does not represent the majority. What he's creating is more akin to Sorcerer or Mystic Knight than Red Mage.

Go back and play 1 and 5. The 'Fundamental design' of Red Mage DOES, in fact, favor casting. However, unlike in MMO settings, Red Mage needed nothing more than an appropriate weapon to deal sizable damage. in MMO's we're going to need a full set of gears and support abilities to match. Right now, that is lacking.

To get into the thick of things with the more, truly for the lack of the better term, elitist DD bunch, there is going to have to be some utility tied directly to Red Mage's front lining that benefits THEM. Cause any sort of buff that just directly benefits our personal performance is going to simply be cried about for a nerf and how "Red Mage is too imbalanced, it can do everything!"

As far as depreciating Haste and Refresh. Refresh IS depreciated. All this is done for many mages is allow them to be irresponsible with their MP pools outside of Abyssea. Haste will never depreciate due to how powerful of a status it is. Whether or not the role of the 'haster' depreciates thanks to it becoming available via two subjobs at 99, will just seed another problem: There will be no purpose for a Red Mage because we can't heal/support as well as a WHM/RDM.

If we Receive Cure V in that time without a substantial change and streamlining, we're back to competing directly with WHM for the healer spot, which I find is unacceptable, and it was a major mistake for SE to allow the role of the Red Mage to be pocketed as a solo healer for as long as it did.

If the aims are to depreciate the value of Haste and Refresh, the only solution for a Red Mage in this situation is to truncate the 'cycle' mentality directly, namely, Hastega. Given to White or Red this will destroy the concept of a cycle-mage, which, more than anything, is the primary issue on Red Mages in the front line.

After that, you could provide some recognizable front line utility and the arguments against letting a Red Mage who's geared to the front lines will fall short. The only untouched utility as it stands now, however, that we do not have in some form is monster TP gain/TP attacks, and it just happens to address the "yur fedin tpz to da mobz1" argument.

[Duelle]

No offense to Duelle, but he does not represent the majority. What he's creating is more akin to Sorcerer or Mystic Knight than Red Mage.

None taken, though Mystic Knight had no access to cures. Mystic Knight has no access to any sort of buff spells. Much like Enspells, however, I was borrowing an idea and molding it to make it relevant to Red Mage melee. We've already gone down part of that road with enspells, I'm just wanting the class to go the rest of the way there, if only to help kill the "lol rdm izn't dd" comments.

Not to mention, the alternative is leave the class as is with black magic, white magic and nothing native to the class to help push it into melee range. Honestly, Enspells are nice, but they're not enough.

[ManaKing]

I just want to be effective in my AF3 with Almace because they look amazing and every other job is able to do so. Unfortunately, to make RDM effective while doing this would require RDM to be able to convert more than just HP to MP.

(I personally prefer the Murgleis to the Almace for the image of RDM. But with that setup, presently, you aren't going to be able to do anything but cast. Your sword is only a fancy sword-shaped wand.)

I still would most prefer to push the spell sword image of RDM, because it is the one that is most vivid in my mind and it is what I was sold on. The only 2 things I think we need to worry about are HasteGa and our Enspell damage.

I agree with Hyrist, I think our solution for our spells, that would keep us up with the rest of the jobs in the game, would be to add HasteGa for RDMs. Garuda already gets Hastega, COR can already lower weapon delay for everyone in the party, BRD have their marches. There is nothing imbalanced about RDM getting something that 3 other jobs have access to.

Make it so you can cast it on an entire party at a time. If you cast hastega on a person in your party, everyone in range gets haste. If you cast it on someone in another party, everyone in range of that person gets haste. RDM spends less time buffing everyone. They have more time to spend on however they think they should play their job.


We need new Enspell 3s at 75+ (For the purpose of clarity I'll just refer to it as Enspell X)

The functions I am looking for are:

• Greater Enspell Damage that can be modified by gear
• Less or No TP Feed for your man hand
• Elemental Resistance Lowered matches the element of the Enspell and can be increased by gear
• While under Enspells, we get Weapon Haste = The recast reduction of our Fast Cast
• While under Composure, Magic Accuracy is added to our Regular Accuracy

The purpose of these changes are so that RDM can wear mage gear, which is what our AF1-3 is, and still be able to melee. RDM converts magical strength into melee prowess. Sword and Sorcery.

Damage
The biggest problem Enspells currently have, is that they don't give us enough of a reason to be meleeing. Their damage is insignificant. Enspell X would apply Enspell damage with every hit we do with our main hand. We get screwed out of our Joyeus and our 2-4 Khanda +2 unless we use Enspell 1s, no to mention a bunch of other gear and abilities. Enspell 2s aren't worth the price we pay for them after 70+.

Enspell X would have the same base as the other Enspells, but would be modified by INT. The options I see for this are either you get 1 base damage for every point of additional INT you get from your gear and buffs. Or you get a scale where every 4 points of INT = 1 point of base. Tarutaru has the highest Enspell damage naturally, Elvaan has the worst.

Enspell X's damage would also be subject to Magic Attack bonus. This includes RDM's natural job trait, magic attack bonus from gear, and magic attack bonus from buffs like COR's Wizard's Roll or Atmas such as Ultimate or Hell's Guardian. It would also apply to corresponding Elemental Attack bonuses from sources such as Atma of the Beyond if you were using Enblizzard X.

Enspell X will calculate it's base damage based off of your enhancing skill at the time of cast. It will calculate the bonuses from INT and MAB on hit. Enspell X will not tick up like current Enspell 2s, Enspell Xs damage will be superior for a well geared RDM. Enspell X will not allow users to cast it in mage gear and then switch to full DD gear, the point of this change is to get RDMs meleeing in their AF so that everyone knows what we are.


TP Feed
While under the effect of Enspell X (main hand only) you would not give the mob TP. A RDM that only uses their main hand to attack with would never give the mob TP. If you choose to dual wield, both DNC and NIN have subtle blow for your offhand. You can choose to dual wield and gain additional on hit effects and better stats from a 2nd weapon, but your offhand will be giving the mob TP. The argument of RDMs feed TP is now completely out the window.


Elemental Resistance Lowered
Elemental Resistance Lowered by Enspell X would correspond to the element of the enspell. If you cast Enfire X, you will be dealing fire damage on hit and you will lowering the mobs ability to negate that damage by lowering their fire resistance. Enspell X will exploit enemies' elemental weakness and open them up to full elemental damage for not just the RDM's spells, but also to the entire party's spells as well.

The amount of elemental resistance can start at 10 and can be further increased by MND. I see the same options for MND as I do for INT. Either it's off bonus' from gear and buffs, or it is off total MND. In the case of the later, Elvaan have the best elemental resistance lowering and mithra/tarutaru have the worst. MND, like INT would be calculated on hit and would override your previous effect.


While under Enspell X, we get Weapon Haste = The recast reduction of our Fast Cast
Our Fast Cast now counts double. You still get the full affect of reducing casting time. Your Recast still get's lowered by 1/2 of the value of your cast time reduction. BUT what you get is attack speed reduction equal to your recast value. This value counts against your equipment haste cap, furthering the idea that you can melee in your AF.


While under Composure, Magic Accuracy is added to our Regular Accuracy
Same idea as above, we take what we can actually gear for, and make it work to our advantage. Murgleis will make it so you will not miss either spells or melee. I would also change it so that composure gives +10 Magic Accuracy instead of regular Accuracy. ALSO our Tier 1 Merits wouldn't be so bad anymore. Every merit would be +3 accuracy with the corresponding Enspell X. You could get +15 accuracy with 2 different Enspell Xs or distribute them how you like.


Ending Statement
RDM has a B in both of their main weapons. We would have the accuracy to hit and we would provide DD that does not feed TP. Our reasons for being at the front line would be to debuff elemental resistances for our party and deal significantly more efficient DPS than if we were on the backline. We would have the time to front line with the addition of HasteGa. We would be able to reach our equipment haste cap easier and could equip ourselves in Mage gear to further enhance our casting side. We would have the tools inside of Aby and outside of Aby to be useful in a party and be able to contribute damage. Our Tier 1 merits would be significantly more attractive.

Our Job identity would be significantly more defined, we would get to be able to wear our AF more prominently, and a lot of our issues would be resolved.

[Supersun]

I just want to be effective in my AF3 with Almace because they look amazing and every other job is able to do so.

Either the Dev team has the nightmare of trying to figure out a way that our already implemented AF3+2 can become THE melee set

or...

You can .dat swap




Ascetics are nice and all, but SE will have a big enough of a chore just getting Rdm melee to be successful. They don't need the added limitations of our AF3+2 being the best set as a requirement.

On that note, if they decide to throw in a Rdm melee set I wouldn't mind that purple armor that those shade people wear from the WotG missions.

[Supersun]

You just have to realize that the Dev team can't spend an infinite amount of time working on just one class.

Sure an "overhaul" would be nice, but realistically isn't going to happen.

Just finding an idea that will fix the problem isn't enough. The best ideas are short, simple, and to the point.

[Duelle]

You just have to realize that the Dev team can't spend an infinite amount of time working on just one class.

Sure an "overhaul" would be nice, but realistically isn't going to happen.

The main issue is finding something that'll make the melee enthusiasts happy, will make the backline crowd happy, and will not provoke the outsiders. Under RDM's current design, there are too many "buts" attached to it when we talk about changes to the class. Either because of our perceived utility, the fact we had a handful of people solo former endgame bosses, our lacking melee, or the irrational fear that RDM would replace everyone else, to name a few.

As I may have said earlier in one of the threads here, I don't care what approach is taken as long as something is done. Won't stop me from having my own outlook on what the class should and should not have, but if they go with your or Hyrist's or Seriha's approach over mine, I won't be against it because we're still reaching the goal of the thread.

[Hyrist]

Not to mention, the alternative is leave the class as is with black magic, white magic and nothing native to the class to help push it into melee range. Honestly, Enspells are nice, but they're not enough.

Especially not with Haste Samba destroying any chance we would have for catching up, unless our enspells came with innate attack speed increase.

But that said, I would like not to go beyond the bounds of the alterations already done to the class's primary structure, as it's not all that much different from our FF1 incarnation. (We had both "Haste" and "Focus" as melee enhancers then.)

I also agree with the concept that we are not a Damage Dealer. We are a support job. But, in that respect, so is Corsair, and Corsair's still deal damage. So do Dancers. We should be on about that level.

As far as encouraging melee throughout the levels. Grant RDM native EX weaponskills. Pair that up with some more low-hanging melee gear for RDM in the level span of 75-90 for people to build up upon, and we should be ok there.

The real concern is late game performance, where the issues are breaking the playerbase out of the cycle mentality and having a valuable front line utility.

Which is why I keep going back to the TP issue. Not because of outside arguments that enemies TP moves are two powerful to allow a low-damage assistance in the party, but because TP attacks remain the last avenue for enfeebling. Attaching it to our melee just seems to fit as it addresses a key anti-melee issue.