On Red Mage melee...

[Neisan_Quetz]

I see two outcomes, either a) a melee update is substantial and Rdm can melee on par/better than other dualwielders and we go back to the TaU pre sch release sitaution in another direction (people will still bring Thf for TH and DNC will still be useful for haste samba/spot healing/flourish, unless Rdm can suddenly give potent buffs beyond what it has), or b) it isn't substantial and does nothing to change the job. I don't see SE managing the middle ground when it comes to Rdm and melee, maybe their original plan for Rdm reached a hitch due to people having different ideas about what direction Rdm should go in (kinda like this forum, who'd thunk it), they think focusing on melee wasn't what they wanted for all but one mage class, whatever. Doom mentioned fixing Rdm but outside of Abyssea is Rdm really -that- broken? Outside of Eearthen Armor/PD I'd say Smn has a host of problems, yet perhaps that's balance in SE's eyes for being a pet class with hateless damage, Idk. Not to say a melee update (that isn't useless, see b)wouldn't be nice but what does it really change? Either you're going to be in a situation where it's viable to melee or fighting something where it's not, unless the update is such your melee becomes viable on harder mobs? Would that still maintain balance considering Rdm's current spells/abilities? Just adding JA haste to Composure(10-15%)/improving the amount of accuracy given by it/giving +Attack (subtle blow is a bonus but doesn't really affect meleeing) to Enspell 1s (much less actually fixing 2) could make Rdm melee either equal to or better than Blu (assumed current best gear for each and an IT 97 mob) for instance. Is that the direction you think it should while maintaining everything else, or is something else going need to be nerfed for a sort of 'melee stance' allowing Rdm to melee?

To answer your 'drama fodder' question: I used to be upset about it then accepted Rdm not being useful everywhere and especially not meleeing was most likely going to happen. It doesn't really change things for me either way, I'm still going to play a job I like depending on the sitaution, and Rdm while not excellent is still useful in lowman groups outside of Abyssea. In my eyes the point of a generalist job is to be good enough at performing roles without exceeding a specialist in any (in which case Rdm is still the best enfeebling job, whether you agree having better enfeebles is necessary or not), and I accept in a MMO environment such a job is going to have failings in at least one if not several fields. Even though it was a pseudo MMO environment .hack/G.U.'s Adept rogue stands out to me as a case of a generalist job failing, as while it could learn many spells and use many weapons for different situations, it gained weapons skills slowly, it couldn't learn higher tier magic, and was considered too difficult to use that most people thought of the job as undesirable except in - lowman/solo situations where it could decently fill a role assuming you didn't have a specialist.

If there was a melee update I'm behind JA haste for composure/Subtle Blow/attack+ for enspells/reworking enspell 2s all at once, even if I don't think one is absolutely necessary. Nice? Yes. Will job be useless absolutely everywhere without it? No.

Oh yea, if it wasn't obvious I was being half sarcastic but that's really the tone I get from some of these posts.

[Hyrist]

We seriously need a RDM Melee FAQ for those who want to jump into arguments late... I think I did years ago but it can stand a revisiting.

Also, I love how people post like being a full DD is the aims and goals of a Red Mage in the front lines, that's hilarious.

Haven't we been going on for years listing possible utilities that can be used instead?


Honestly, screw damage, the best way to get BG Flops to agree to a RDM meleeing is to give RDM an Enspell that actively damages TP based on the exact formula as an Enspell 1. Meaning, a skilled RDM with a multhit build could seriously spread out the target enemies TP moves.

It would inverse the "Don't feeds the monsters tp!" Argument completely and take damage out of the equation. A RDM would be meleeing to slow down the enemy's TP attacks.

It'd make RDM absolutely broken solo, though. Though perhaps an anit-solo mechanic can be put into it to prevent such abuse, like a resistance over (large periods of) time increase. Or gains resistance quickly if there are no other attacks.


For those who don't get why RDMs desire to be in the front lines (even casually). You need to check on your history of FF. It's a selling point of the job, even if the mechanics make it hell to do and ineffective compared to pure damage dealers. If SE is going to continue featuring Red Mage with a sword at all (especially with something like Sagasinger.) I want them to back up what they advertise, period.

The fact that this is even an argument points out that both the job needs to be reworked, or at the bare minimum given a mechanic that will appease those who want absolutely nothing but the best.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Isn't being able to viably DD idk, the point of a melee update? Unless you're looking for Enspell 2 2.0, that was a melee update too (a massively failed one, but a melee update nonetheless).

[Hyrist]

Those who look at Enspell II's as a failure were not paying attention to the target levels they were to be applied at: Namely levels 51-70. (@ 75 camp we were doing upwards of 80% of Damage dealers, fully built.) It did exactly as it was designed to do: Ease the use of front lining in low levels.

The gripe is that it did absolutely nothing more, and the fact that it does not factor Enhancing Skill on cast makes it pitiful as a substitute to Enspell Is even when wanting to gain the effect of Sambas while dual wielding.

But between it, and Composure, the only reasons not to melee in that level range was simply the lack of available healers.

When abyssea came out, it rendered the entire situation moot anyways, and without any real post 70s utilities, the spell is viewed as a total failure.

But no, Enspell IIs are a product of discussions on how to make lower level Red Mages catch up during the 50-70 level gap where our performance dipped so considerably that it lead to the staff stigma. But as usual, too little, too late for SE.

What needs to be done now is a more permanent solution. The most persistantly annoying argument against Red Mages in the front line is that our 'damage does not justify the TP we give the monster'. Which makes two base assumptions:

1) Red Mage is meleeing on monsters with horrendous enough TP attacks to warrant such an arguments.
2) Red Mages want to/should deal as much damage as dedicated DDs.

Both are utterly false, but any tactics situations in which these arguments get addressed by pro-melee enthusiasts, they instantly get told that they are not valid off the grounds that "Well that situation doesn't matter." or "X job can do that better." as if we WANT to play X job or find it remotely enjoyable.

Which really does narrow down our solutions to one: Have Red Mage deal negative TP gain to the monsters in question. At that point, a Red Mage can do Lulzy damage, and it would not matter. The fact that someone is both Tping free of additional risk, as well as lowering the risk for those around them, would widely broaden Red Mage's acceptability in the front lines.

There will still be monsters that may be too risky to be in the front lines with, but it would address all of the major cruxes that make this job broken due to social stigmas against it. (False Advertising of job role, Unfair Competition/Priority on Trophy gear such as relic/empyrean weapons, melee gear, Fitting the front line support caster role.)

The more I hear arguments against RDM Front Lining, the more I believe this is the number one solution.

@Aurara

A lot of what RDM brings to a fight is placebo, as far as mage gear goes. If something as simple as say, your nuking gear, was set aside in a fight you knew you were going to be frontlining more and nuking less, it could be put in your satchel and you'd have enough from for MBD/PDT gear.

That said, Red Mage has the most native tools to reduce damage, and can sub for the best. As far as magical damge goes. We're Tied with Scholar for the highest Enhancing Skill in the game, and our Bar spells are nothing to scoff at. When I have them up, I typically will survive an attack that will wipe a group.

Combined with Stoneskin, Phalanx, native MDB, and our ability to cure ourselves to save the WHM the trouble, we're just as durable if not more so than most the melee's out there.

A better argument would be NMs with nasty status effects (Seps for example.) Those would be the kinds we'd avoid, and probably still have to avoid if we were to get an update.

[ManaKing]

A better argument would be NMs with nasty status effects (Seps for example.) Those would be the kinds we'd avoid, and probably still have to avoid if we were to get an update.

Funny How that happens

[Neisan_Quetz]

* 80%, Phalanx doesn't block enough on high damage single hits (yes I know it's a nice damage reduction tool but you can't overplay how useful it is on harder mobs), What are you fighting that is so weak you only need SS/phalanx on, too much DD on something that is constantly one shotting your DD is bad strategy/someone is doing something wrong (bar VW).

The more I hear it the more I believe it (negative tp gain from mobs) would either be useless or too useful to the point of being nerfed to uselessness.

[Hyrist]

* 80%, Phalanx doesn't block enough on high damage single hits (yes I know it's a nice damage reduction tool but you can't overplay how useful it is on harder mobs), What are you fighting that is so weak you only need SS/phalanx on, too much DD on something that is constantly one shotting your DD is bad strategy/someone is doing something wrong (bar VW).

The more I hear it the more I believe it (negative tp gain from mobs) would either be useless or too useful to the point of being nerfed to uselessness.

Single hits are usually subject to blind/utsu/blink defences, those that bypass, it's not as if we don't have PDT gear, you're just arguing semantics if you believe a RDM knowing what they're doing when, can't fit in a PDT set.

Magical damage wise goes, Red Mage is rather incredible for resisting magic damage with the appropriate barspell up. Again, Addle is effective on Magical TP moves as well as spells as far as Magical Accuracy reduction.


As far as an Anti-TP ability, it can be balanced. Bare minimum, all it has to do is offset the TP gain we give the mob + maybe a few extra. And to prevent Solo abuse, you can have it rapidly decay or be resisted if no one else is hitting the mob.

[Karbuncle]

I don't think Subbing NIN was because of Shadows completely, its also the Dual Wield III that will massively boost your DPS when Dual Wielding

Just saying, If you can't figure that out you're the reason RDM melee gets a horrible name (outside of other things).

If you're going to Melee on RDM at least try to do it as right as possible, /NIN is a good start. Well, its the only start. No other sub job is going to make up for nearly 25% (?) Delay Reduction. If you're going to try and argue /SCH or something for utility (-Na Spells), and not using /NIN, I think you found the reason Melee RDM Suffers so much in the eyes of the community.

In order to become more effective in Melee damage, you have to give up something on your mage side (/nin or /mage)

[Hyrist]

I don't think Subbing NIN was because of Shadows completely, its also the Dual Wield III that will massively boost your DPS when Dual Wielding

Just saying, If you can't figure that out you're the reason RDM melee gets a horrible name (outside of other things).

If you're going to Melee on RDM at least try to do it as right as possible, /NIN is a good start. Well, its the only start. No other sub job is going to make up for nearly 25% (?) Delay Reduction. If you're going to try and argue /SCH or something for utility (-Na Spells), and not using /NIN, I think you found the reason Melee RDM Suffers so much in the eyes of the community.

In order to become more effective in Melee damage, you have to give up something on your mage side (/nin or /mage)

Beleive me, you don't need to tell me about Dual Wield.

Though I tend to balance /DNC with /NIN depending on situation/composition. If no Dancer available (or I know the dancer is going to be using Fan Dance) /DNC's Haste Samba for the party vastly outweighs additional dual weild for myself. It also comes with me being able to stack up Dia III with Box Step, JA's for Dynamis procs, etc. So there's some situational value in that subjob if you're taking the front lines on RDM.

But for straight damage/defense, RDM isn't going to get better than /nin.

But it's well known among those who front line RDM consistently that a choice is made out the mog house in what role you're playing. Front Line RDM just doesn't play the same way.

As far as avoiding Seps, it depends on the situation. All that's needed is one outside healer, and a RDM going /dnc can be the one to wake his party without the healer wasting a curega.

[Hyrist]

Aurara, your argument is jumping all over the place, and half of it isn't even valid. Settle down and read for a while before you reply.

1. RDM in front lines, likely /nin. Utsu > Blink.

2. RDM has PDT gear, period. You can fit it in if you know where to swap.

3. Resist chances when under the appropriate Barspells skyrocket, Shell is flat damage reduction, we have native Magical Defense Bonus, Addle helps resists for everyone including ourselves.

4. 350 Damage absorbed is 350 Damage prevented. It most defiantly can mean the difference between survival and death regardless of gear. Typically, you're not going to have to worry about massive re-uses of the same TP move unless you're talking NMs, which is an entirely different catagory of argument.


More and more, people who abundantly come here to argue against RDM melee show up with the wrong presumptions. As I've said before, it's gotten to the point where it's almost not worth addressing, because we wind up repeating ourselves.