On Red Mage melee...

[Aurara]

If you REALLY want my opinion, give RDM Cure V, so that they arent given the shaft in abyssea, as it stands they can't keep up with healing for the most part. My argument is that i'm not so much against RDM melee, it's the fact that so many people who do it, do it completely wrong(as i stated earlier, meleeing in mage gear, and genereally not gear swapping). My other problem is that it's difficult for you to keep up, and you're also in range of TP moves, etc meaning you're casting cures on yourself, or SS, cutting your melee time. Granted i have used Death Blossom to be able to debuff certain mobs(i.e Khim and Cerb at 75) and that was neat. But I'm not against you, i just would like you to get an understanding of what i feel rdm needs, and at this time i dont think more en-spells, melee gear, or DD abilities is what RDM needs at this time in the game.

[Doombringer]

meh.. i could take cure5 or leave it. sorta risks the pink mage/death of all whm's situation from the toa spampage era. not to mention i didn't pick whm because i didn't wanna be a whm.. you asked why rdms would want to melee things, i won't try to answer for everyone but at least for me... that's what rdm IS.

it's a full third of the job.. or at least a full third of the job that SE sold me way back when i started the game.

you might say why invite an rdm if he's meleeing.. i would say, why invite one if he isn't? and if the game is setup in such a way that meleeing on rdm is BAD, then the game (or at least the job) is broken..

wich is what we're talking about. fixing rdm.


edit: wich is also why we get frustrated when ppl pop in with the same old lolmeleerdm BS. we know... we know so much that we made a great big thread about it to try and get se to make it not so lol...

[Seriha]

So, if not now, when? Because this isn't a suddenly new development and you know it.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend to be Nostradamus, but given my initial reply and subsequent replies you've given since then, no matter what we say or do will apparently get your seal of approval for RDM melee anytime soon. Why would you bother asking, then, if the intent was not drama fodder for BG's happy fun thread where you and Neisan are having a good ol' time paraphrasing and taking things out of context?

Okay, so you're not against us, but I'm having a hard time believing you're with us. Help me wrap my head around this attempt at neutrality when you pretty much pin the worst thing SE could do to us for broadening RDM's scope and individuality by giving Cure V and insisting on further ignorance of martial issues that existed even under the 75 cap and have only gotten worse through inaction toward RDM and the advancement of other jobs. That doesn't at all sound like neutrality or compromise, just the shoveling of more of the same crap RDM's had to wade through since people couldn't find WHMs back in the day.

[Aurara]

Because, you don't seem to understand how difficult it would be to boost rdm melee dmg. I just would like you to realize how much would need to be changed in order to make rdm even remotely good. Even WITH Almace, rdm/war, 26% haste gear, you still wouldnt contribute as much dmg as other DDs would. From what i hear, somebody said they would not cure themselves on rdm because that was a "back line mage's job". Why do you have cures then? You also are not factoring in the fact that most people suck at melee rdm, and melee in mage gear and hit nothing, or the fact that Subtle Blow is nearly non-existant on rdm, so you would be feeding the mob unnecessary amounts of TP, which would do more harm than good for your group.

[Doombringer]

From what i hear, somebody said they would not cure themselves on rdm because that was a "back line mage's job".

what? who?

you're judging us based on something you "heard" some guy said?

comon guy...


also, we don't need to do as much dmg as a full dd job, that'd be op anyway. we just need to do enough dmg to justify the effort.


as for most meleeing rdms sucking at it... yah.. but why does that mean the job can't be fixed? i'm guessing most rdms don't bother to gear for melee because atm all it gets them is laughed off the internet. one of the suggestions earlier was an rdm melee set in the same spirit as the perle set. not great, but an easy starting point. think of how many dd jobs use perle? now imagine if they didn't have that? how shitty would they be geared? should they not be meleeing on those jobs?

it seems like your argument is that rdm melee needs to much to be valid? if se wanted to they could fix it in one update. i can do it right now. it'd be lazy and overpowering, but i can make it up off the top of my head. give rdm access to every piece of armor in the game. give them access to all swords, an A+ sword skill, and all sword ws' natively. give them duel wield, att bonus, acc bonus, eva bonus (and A+ in evasion), def bonus, tactical parry (and A+ in parying), double attack, triple attack, and sublte blow job traits. (top tier, of course) triple, hell quadruple enspell dmg. then while we're at it, change rdm base stat spread to give them str like a drk and dex like a thf.

there you go. rdm melee is now perfectly valid, all with things that are already in the game, and the job is crazy broken. my whole point is that "yes" and "no" are not answers to this thread. we're not talking about if, we're talking about how. my "solution" above is obviously not a GOOD answer to "how" but it's just to make a point. if THAT rdm still can't melee, then... there's just no talking to you...

[Seriha]

"Man, I partied with this crappy WAR once, I should never invite one to my parties again."

You know that's pretty much the equivalent of what you're saying, right? Bad players will be bad at whatever job regardless of what SE does, but to proclaim this some insurmountable task is just you being self-defeating.

Look, I've seen the goobers in Errant, and I guess Teal these days. Part of why RDM suffers is because gear typically is an either/or choice with no sign of strong hybrid pieces in sight (Like it or not, not everyone uses Windower, scripts, and Spellcast). Repeat old counter-argument of how RDMs just want broken gear, blah, blah, where the net effect is really just an inventory+x while at the same time reducing the catastrophe of these shitty RDMs if the gear itself is reasonable enough to acquire (Let's avoid the rare drop from a 21-24hr+ NM please, thanks).

Meanwhile, while we don't discount the value of meaningful damage, "the point" (and not in the sharp weapon kind of way), is that while the RDM might not be putting up a WAR's numbers, curing as well as a WHM, nuking as hard as a BLM, or doling out the same kind of support as a BRD, they could be doing unique things like breaking a mob's immunities, further debilitating TP moves so their TP feed isn't so much a detriment, and just ideally meshing some flavors of enfeebling and enhancing in the process that don't center around boring, monotonous cycles that could just as easily be done from the back with a skill-less staff weapon. Should the flow of battle suddenly change, they should have the means to shift gears and maybe help cover for a weakened party member's role until they're back up to speed, but otherwise MP will be the definitive limiter for those afraid of overpowering the job, with a side of recast timers that hopefully wouldn't suck.

[Aurara]

I don't think you're reading what I'm actually typing, and again, are trying to poke holes in my argument to make it seem as if I'm the one who is "dumb" or wrong. This whole time have I belittled you guys at all? no, not really. I read what you guys posted, and all you do is come out at me swinging, saying how I'm wrong, and that "RDM is capable of meleeing" I'm not disagreeing, but i really think you have no idea what buffing melee rdm would do, literally nothing. People would still melee in mage gear, not swapping gear for enfeebs, cures, buffs, etc(which is a large portion of the job itself, since it has a great enhancing skill lvl as well as enfeeb). You are not factoring in the extra TP feed that you are giving the mob, not accounting for how many TP moves can actually 1 shot, or nearly kill DDs from full HP, what on earth makes you think you will survive these TP moves? You certainly wont, unless you bring PDT/MDT sets, which would mean even more gear to carry around on TOP of your enfeebling/curing/haste/enhancing/MND sets, i struggle to get 75/80 inventory slots on RDM, and thats WITHOUT MDT/melee set.

[Seriha]

No, I've read what you've typed. I've read it all before. Maybe not from you, but the usual naysayers and "don't bother!"-ers (..er) for 7+ years of melee advocacy and requests for buffs from SE. We come out swinging because you've brought up nothing new, at the same time, by not going through this thread or others, seeing that we've bounced possible ideas to counter any and all of those detriments.

Consider the recent AGI changes, Gain-AGI, and a potential tweak to Enaero that grants Subtle Blow reflective of the buff's damage. Would something like 25 or more Subtle Blow between the two be something to scoff at on top of /NIN's offerings? Now, pair this with a debuff that not only slows the ready time of TP moves akin to Addle, but lowers their fTP/damage values to the point where maybe a one-shot move isn't one-shotting anyone anymore, and as an added bonus, your attentive BLMs, DRKs, or BLUs could actually stun it. Have we hit, "End of the world!" status yet? Because I think Gogglehead made a crack about me causing that if SE ever listened to me about RDM.

[Aurara]

No, I've read what you've typed. I've read it all before. Maybe not from you, but the usual naysayers and "don't bother!"-ers (..er). We come out swinging because you've brought up nothing new, at the same time, by not going through this thread or others, seeing that we've bounced possible ideas to counter any and all of those detriments.

No reason to come out swinging, especially when I'm trying to be civil with you.

Consider the recent AGI changes, Gain-AGI, and a potential tweak to Enaero that grants Subtle Blow reflective of the buff's damage. Would something like 25 or more Subtle Blow between the two be something to scoff at on top of /NIN's offerings? Now, pair this with a debuff that not only slows the ready time of TP moves akin to Addle, but lowers their fTP/damage values to the point where maybe a one-shot move isn't one-shotting anyone anymore, and as an added bonus, your attentive BLMs, DRKs, or BLUs could actually stun it. Have we hit, "End of the world!" status yet? Because I think Gogglehead made a crack about me causing that if SE ever listened to me about RDM.

This is a bad argument, because any DD/nin or not /nin will cap subtle blow from auspice and rajas ring for the most part. Also Scherzo and Earthen Armor+Migwari remove the danger of being 1 shotted.

[Seriha]

So, if it's not a problem because of those buffs, why bring it up? Assumption that every party/alliance has a BRD+SMN aside.