On Red Mage melee...

[Karbuncle]

Given some time i could probably think of a few Job Specific weaponskills. I think i might do that. I wish this website had Spoiler tags so i can make them in a way everyone didn't have to read them >__>

[Seriha]

Think code tags would create a scroll bar if you get long enough, which seems likely if you do a WS for all 20 jobs with a bit of a description for each.

[Aurara]

Can i just ask two questions, why do you guys want to be able to melee so bad, and why do you think that you'll be able to keep up with other DDs?

[Seriha]

Can i just ask two questions, why do you guys want to be able to melee so bad, and why do you think that you'll be able to keep up with other DDs?

For the sake of quelling yet another troll attempt from a BG regular, just read the thread. I know it'll make your sensitive brain hurt, cause you to think we're retards, and bring about all sorts of implying you know better if sticking with the "mage" side, but the answers are here and don't exactly focus on matching or exceeding the DPS of others if a desired utility is involved. Your questions are loaded with the implication it's not worth the trade-off. Such is something we're trying to address. Ultimately, if it ever is worth it, the efficiency-mongers lose a leg to stand on and all that really would be left is RDMs occasionally combating a shortage of healers and being pushed into the role, but that's a problem that springs up in any MMO and nothing "fixing RDM" could do anything about.

[Duelle]

For the sake of quelling yet another troll attempt from a BG regular, just read the thread. I know it'll make your sensitive brain hurt, cause you to think we're retards, and bring about all sorts of implying you know better if sticking with the "mage" side, but the answers are here and don't exactly focus on matching or exceeding the DPS of others if a desired utility is involved. Your questions are loaded with the implication it's not worth the trade-off. Such is something we're trying to address. Ultimately, if it ever is worth it, the efficiency-mongers lose a leg to stand on and all that really would be left is RDMs occasionally combating a shortage of healers and being pushed into the role, but that's a problem that springs up in any MMO and nothing "fixing RDM" could do anything about.

This is what I get for going to work on a Sunday. I was gonna draw a picture of a Red Mage as it should be and a pic of a Red Mage refresh/haste/cure botting to illustrate the point as soon as I got back home.

[Aurara]

For the sake of quelling yet another troll attempt from a BG regular, just read the thread. I know it'll make your sensitive brain hurt, cause you to think we're retards, and bring about all sorts of implying you know better if sticking with the "mage" side, but the answers are here and don't exactly focus on matching or exceeding the DPS of others if a desired utility is involved. Your questions are loaded with the implication it's not worth the trade-off. Such is something we're trying to address. Ultimately, if it ever is worth it, the efficiency-mongers lose a leg to stand on and all that really would be left is RDMs occasionally combating a shortage of healers and being pushed into the role, but that's a problem that springs up in any MMO and nothing "fixing RDM" could do anything about.

The problem is that you assumed that just because i'm a "BG regular" i would come in and start bashing you, calling you names, etc...which i had no intention of doing, nor do i have the intention of belittling you. All I'm curious about is why you guys want to melee high level mobs so badly? You require an enormous amount of gear for rdm as it is, enhancing set, haste set PDT/MDT/Enfeebling/MND/etc. Then there is the melee set. I really do not care if you guys want to melee things. Sure, it's a lot of fun, i melee on rdm too...except its in situations like campaign, or when i'm just messing around with friends. I don't think you guys seem to understand that RDM melee is just not efficient. You require so much gear to even hit the mob, not to mention food etc. There is also the fact that 99.99% of RDM who melee dont do it right, melee in full mage gear, and fail at their duties as rdm, which include: refresh2/haste/debuff/cure/na spells, etc.

[Duelle]

There is also the fact that 99.99% of RDM who melee dont do it right, melee in full mage gear, and fail at their duties as rdm, which include: refresh2/haste/debuff/cure/na spells, etc.

I heard -na spells are native to RDM, and that WHM is the premium sub for melee (cue Kanye West saying "Yo /NIN, I'm real happy for you and Imma let you finish, but /WHM is the best melee sub of all time! Of. All. Time!"). :O

[Aurara]

You see, you're poking holes in my arguments to try to make them not hold water. If you want to melee, go right on ahead, except that rdm/whm or rdm/sch is hands down best combo for most things. Also if you're really advocating rdm/nin then lol, because rdm/nin is so useful for when you're done building time and ready to start NMs/farming.

[Duelle]

You see, you're poking holes in my arguments to try to make them not hold water.

And here I thought we were being getting along so well...

Also if you're really advocating rdm/nin then lol, because rdm/nin is so useful for when you're done building time and ready to start NMs/farming.

I'm not advocating anything, to be honest. Just playing off the accepted standards. I'm more about /DNC, but that's because I like instant cast abilities that cleanse status ailments.

The sub is supposed to be part of the kit that shows what you've chosen your role to be. Gear is supposed to be the other part. Since SE screwed up by allowing gear swapping mid-combat, they effectively negated one of RDM's balancing factors. In Tanaka and Matsui's heads, the players were supposed to just allow a job to be played with a main/sub set up of choice and designed Red Mage around the idea of gear and sub being the determining factors of how you play. That didn't pan out because people became obsessed with max exp/hour and a class like RDM in its hybrid glory did not fit that model, hence the "leper of all trades" era, followed by the enfeebling and refresh band-aids that shackled us to the back line.

[Seriha]

See, you failed the proverbial litmus test in basically not showing the willingness to read the thread. Like others who have come before, you've parroted on about how RDMs should only ever entertain swinging at things that don't matter, and indirectly how your problem with things a WHM should be doing is suddenly a RDM's problem. You've assumed they're all geared like ass and have nothing positive to bring to the encounter.

Well, that latter sentiment isn't exactly something we disagree with, and part of why we banter about needing better gear, more melee-oriented spells/abilities, and incentives to off-set the risk a melee RDM otherwise brings to those seeking perfection. We've bounced ideas, yes. We don't expect any or all to stick. People will never agree on finality with the direction of a multi-purpose job. We merely hope SE considers the position and hope that RDM might actually have an identity, a purpose, come 99, because right now, it's never a go-to choice on anything "that matters" and that's FFXI speak for "RDMs don't matter" and, by proxy, the people behind them who'd actually like to play the job as more than a WHM substitute just don't matter, and thus fetch the aggressive rhetoric when we try to oppose that position.

If you're genuinely interested, by all means, propose something you feel might help change your current perception. As with the offer I made to Eeeks before he seemingly got banned, if you've got ideas for the magic side that RDMs should focus on, we'd like to hear 'em, too. Just don't be surprised if something like Cure V is met with hostility.