On Red Mage melee...

[Neisan_Quetz]

If all you was using a Rdm for was haste/cures/status removal/buff/sleepga/stun, you clearly should have invited a second Whm subbing blm.

Rdm can't do all of those at the same time anyway, so I guess that makes the Whm even more useful than it already is.

[Aleste]

I'd rather have a bard actually.

[Supersun]

I'd rather have a bard actually.

Is anyone else a little concerned what Brd/Rdm is going to be able to bring to the table at 99?

I mean one job alone will be able to provide
+35% haste
+12 MP/tick Refresh
Cure 4 + Convert + that 12 MP/tick Refresh (+ whatever gear they have)
+50% Slow - (+80% Slow)

I mean people want to discuss about Rdms awesome buffing abilities but at 99 unless they do something drastic it won't even hold a candle to that.

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Also I don't think it's a matter of front line utility > Back line utility to determine which jobs are allowed to frontline against the risk of danger, but if the reward of the extra contribution that job brings to the front line outweighs the risk of death.

In your example of the dragoon, clearly the reward of him being worth the risk of him on the front line was worth it in your scenario simply because if it wasn't you probably wouldn't have invited him. Similarly with Blue Mage, they are a LOT more useful on the front lines but when the fight gets difficult enough the extra benefit the bring to the front outweighs the risk of them there and they get relegated to the back to cannonball spam. Similarly in the past with Mnks and Chi Blast spam.

It's not just a matter of Front line > Back line to determine who's allowed on the front because when things get dangerous enough virtually no one is allowed on the front lines, and from there unless you can contribute some minimum level of contributions from the back line you just aren't invited period.

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Also, these forums aren't necessarily a place to debate whether something CAN work because let's be honest if SE really wanted to they could design it where you want your Blms on the front line and Wars in the back. These forums are more for finding ideas to accomplish this without it looking so silly as to revamp the entire identity of the job like above. This is why when people come here and just say "Rdm on the front line sucks, it's impossible" we don't reply as courteously because nothing is impossible to balance. The point of these forums are for identifying the obstacles that need to be overcome and brainstorming solutions for them (and then for SE to steal those ideas and add them to other jobs/gear).

(Also, watch your quotes, you quoted me, then attributed Duelle's idea to me.)

[Aleste]

Apologies with the incorrect quoting~ however, I don't believe I've ever once said that its 'impossible' for a RDM to melee.

Rather I find meleeing on ANY MAGE it to be incredibly inefficient and as it stands, is far too risky in the games current design.

And I'll easily admit it because I've spent so long trying to get whitemage to be viable under misery.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Apologies with the incorrect quoting~ however, I don't believe I've ever once said that its 'impossible' for a RDM to melee.

Rather I find meleeing on ANY MAGE it to be incredibly inefficient and as it stands, is far too risky in the games current design.

And I'll easily admit it because I've spent so long trying to get whitemage to be viable under misery.

Well to be fair WHM shouldn't be a front line mage, RDM was supposed to be before SE decided it would have been too powerful a soloist if they did them any good at it, or whatever reason they decided to change it from "melee mage" to just a mage.

[Supersun]

I don't believe I've ever once said that its 'impossible' for a RDM to melee.

Wasn't really referring to you as much as other people that have barged into the thread.

(also, were half of those puns in your post intentional Duelle?)

[Duelle]

(also, were half of those puns in your post intentional Duelle?)

Unfortunately, I haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

I did write this on little sleep and no food in my Taru belly, though. >.>;;

[Seriha]

I realize there is a lot of call for more "Front Line Utility" but in truth there is very little that can be offered that isn't already there, either offered by Red Mage itself through various subjob settings, or flatly via other jobs. Instead of trying to take Red Mage into another direction, I believe we should hone what we already have in place.

As one of my irks when it comes to RDM, throwing your hands up in submission because you can't think of any ideas is not a stance SE should agree with, nor should we support. Now, have other jobs "stolen" things that would've been nice in RDM's hands? Sure. Does that mean the idea well has gone dry? Of course not. Moreover, I'll pass on just yet more tier ups. Quick magic is also a no-no since it could mean nukes going off in your FC gear and so on, basically sacrificing potency when we're desperate for it just to compete with specialists.

[Hyrist]

As one of my irks when it comes to RDM, throwing your hands up in submission because you can't think of any ideas is not a stance SE should agree with, nor should we support. Now, have other jobs "stolen" things that would've been nice in RDM's hands? Sure. Does that mean the idea well has gone dry? Of course not. Moreover, I'll pass on just yet more tier ups. Quick magic is also a no-no since it could mean nukes going off in your FC gear and so on, basically sacrificing potency when we're desperate for it just to compete with specialists.

A few falacies in there Seriha

On 'new ideas':

It's not throwing your hands up for the sake of lack of ideas. It's a matter of shifting the entire direction of a job based off of one crux utility. You're looking for a golden update which I say is just plain naive. Work with the system we have and modify it so it performs better, instead of looking for the 'shiney utility' that's going to change everyone minds about RDM front lining.

As far as getting more Tier ups, that is inevitable. Having what we're more or less designed to get function in a way that better suits us in the manners we would desire would be both more realistic, and easier to apply than flat out inventing a new mechanic. Besides, I've already listed a couple 'borrows' already. They just lean more towards the Hybrid approach, utalizing our spells to assist our melee, and proving more ability to streamline our casting which has always been our trend as a job. I'd rather see them preform that aspect correctly and have it work, then scrap it for a new idea that's even more likely to fail.

Quick Cast and Nukes:

It's seriously not hard to place your spell activation at the end of a gearswap macro instead of at the beginning. So your argument against quick cast is flat out null. Though, having control over when your quick cast operates was something I left open as an option for a reason. Either one would function well, an the trait would require only a minor shift in macro usage.

Not to mention, good luck finding anybody who's actually going to co-operate with some random front line geared Red Mage off of the street, in any sense of the word . . .

I'm surprised this statement even comes up, given the current state of the game. Small group activities dominate with only a few 'random pickups' really applying. At this point in the game, you're mostly playing with your friends or long time shell-mates. It's not nearly as difficult to get a bit of co-operation in small time content.

Trying to use the mechanic in huge Abyssea parties, however, just isn't going to work so well.

In the sense of gear, yes, as that's the limitation of a game that so heavily demands min-maxing.

In the sense of practice, if you ever try to do nothing but swing your sword with maybe the occasional cure or self-buff, you're doing it horribly wrong. (Unfortunately you can't say the same thing for doing nothing but spellcasting, but then, that's why this topic exists, no?)

Speaking truthfully, the two roles between front and back line Red Mage are different, in practice. Instead of becoming the primary responsibility for said roles, you are instead filling the gaps, or lightening the burden of your healer and support, as well as teaming up to assist your damage dealers and CC usage. Its a variable job that functions more on improvisation than a set duty, and that's the benefit and curse of it.

The Red Mage changes with the moment's needs, instead of trying to be a consistent. Again, the situation is archaic, but effective in smaller groups. In larger style events we have other methods of levying our trades. But all of this can be streamlined as a whole which, when paired with an increase of melee gear and a touch more healing utility, should be adequate to bringing Red Mage's various roles up to par, not just any single one because of personal preference.

I love Melee, I will always gear and work towards being as affective as I can be in it. But the sting Red Mage feels in terms of effectiveness isn't JUST melee anymore, it's across the board. We have an opportunity to bring Red Mage up to the hybrid it was meant to be utilized as. However, I don't beleive over-focusing on increasing just our melee aspects by creating a specific front line utility for Red Mage is an appropriate answer, as it ignores those who prefer a back line style.

We HAVE front line utilities, be it our old archaic methods (Skillchain opening + Burst), the newer ones that are less widely spread (WS procs, Elemental WS lights), or borrowed through use of subjob (/Dnc step/spell stacking, /War WS procing, /Blu or /Nin soloing or off tanking.) We can add to these if we want, but we're not going to have any better success with them as we did the current ones unless our core functions are further streamlined and better scaled. This starts at our casting and has to bleed into a better gear selection.

However I am of a belief that the streamlining itself will better enable front line usage, in which case the utility we're clamoring for would just be a placebo effect to attract the attention of the common mentality.

This desire for the "Thing that Only a Red Mage can do." Seems to be more focused on having the spotlight effect than a real means of addressing the rudimentary 'hybrid issue' that's been the ongoing argument about Red Mages in front line for years and years.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That would require random front line Red Mages to stop meleeing in full AF/relic even in this day and age. If it isn't a detriment to other duties I'm not gonna knock it but almost every one I see trying to be frontline mage does it badly.