On Red Mage melee...

[Seriha]

First of all, I didn't link this thread. All I did was vent. Special threads like this are easy enough to find.

The fact you're using "special" as you are pretty much solidifies you're not here to actually converse, but demean.

I didn't get told off, at least not by any respectable posters with a solid grasp of FFXI game mechanics.

I see, so anyone who's not in your "My way or the highway!" camp is uneducated and totally game stupid, which is largely what had people going against you. I'd guess you apply that to any job, though, so the fact it's happening here on the RDM board is irrelevant.

I'm usually a post-and-run kinda cat who likes to toss his stance into the ring when time allows. Although I'd love to hang around for hours-long real-time conversations, I rarely have that kind of time.

You've probably got more posts than a large number of users here. You're not kidding anyone if you're trying to convince us you spend little time on these boards. I'll buy the "post and run" part, though, as the running is pretty much what you did once people disagreed with you.

By the way, I'm by no means a representative of BG as I have fewer that 100 posts and I'm not an entrenched member of that community. I'm a lurker by nature, and I've been reading BG for information for years. Here's what I can tell you though: a solid number of BG posters that post here are not trolling (most of the time). They will share ridiculous posts they find here (and there are so many!), but principally, they want their voices heard and their stances represented on the official forums just like everyone else.

Sharing a stance is one thing. Insulting people is another. If you're as interested as you imply about RDM's magical side being enhanced, then by all means, start your own thread with that focus. I'd venture a guess that any point you'll bring up, however, has been covered by myself or others in this thread or other threads that have come since this one's inception. Meanwhile, playing the peanut gallery in their little snark thread is gonna get you associated with their negative aspects whether you like it or not. Aside from your intro post, your second was in the old incarnation of their trollbait forum superiority thread. Again, you're throwing "special" around as an insult and complimenting a guy for "destroying" another poster. I might have actually bought the lurker line if you had a number of random posts prior, but it seems bettering the game isn't your only priority.

[ManaKing]

When has every job in the game been desirable lol

Ok, you got me there, lolDRG, lolDRK, and lolBLM, were pretty bad.

But that's one of the reasons that the forums exist. I am hoping that with as much history as FFXI has, that they can speed up the process. The updates that are coming in the next year look promising, but vauge. I, personally, want RDM to be taken seriously in these updates.

[Carth]

If you're as interested as you imply about RDM's magical side being enhanced, then by all means, start your own thread with that focus. I'd venture a guess that any point you'll bring up, however, has been covered by myself or others in this thread or other threads that have come since this one's inception.

Considering the only thing the RDMs are screaming out for mage-wise is Cure V, then I would say yeah, that's covered. Suggestions for new enfeebles? Ironically that's covered too, even though they're from the same exact people who regularly post on this thread.

[ManaKing]

Considering the only thing the RDMs are screaming out for mage-wise is Cure V, then I would say yeah, that's covered. Suggestions for new enfeebles? Ironically that's covered too, even though they're from the same exact people who regularly post on this thread.

See the funny thing about forums is that it is a place to share ideas. I came here because I had ideas and I wanted to hear what other people came up with.

While i may criticize or counter-opinion, I would love to hear anyone's idea.

[Aleste]

Bit of blurb - Whitemages are pretty decent equipped to front line as it currently stands, they've plenty of relevant gear to do so, and a couple of spells designed specifically around front lining, also got access to mystic boon and spirit taker which rely on a whitemage not to rest, but to build TP to use.

And yet sensible whitemages don't front line (on the vast-vast majority of mobs), mostly due to the fact that it is:

A - Less efficient to do so (example: loosing out on staff m.acc bonus on your enfeebles)
B - More of a drain on mp resources (taking damage will require to be healed at some point)
C - Most mobs are not 'caster friendly'. Using heavy AOE and ailment-ga or even potent aura effects.

So, honest question (if you don't believe so, then at least humour me):

Do you honestly believe that if given a few toys that promote front lining, that it'll change how the playerbase views the job? Nay, that suddenly you'll get to front line?

Some jobs are capable of it, but don't. Perhaps it's worth a thought as to why they don't.

At the end of the day, it comes down to this:
If they give you some potent melee damage, it'll still be safer and more efficient to back line.
If they give you some nice front line aoe ability, you'll just be expected to run in, use it and run out (akin to auspice and bar-spells).
If they give you some sort of buff that helps reduce the damage you (and nearby party members) take, then your soloing capabilities will drastically improve; and that is something we've seen SE dislike in the past.

I think the trouble with redmage is that it's difficult to accurately balance a job that's meant to be a 'jack of all trades' without overshadowing the specialized jobs, and without overpowering the job itself. Personally if they did give RDM a melee buff, then it'll get used rarely.

--Edit--

Honestly, RDM would require some sort of weapon with decent damage, with a stupid amount of m.acc to match out loosing out on an elemental stave. They would then require some sort of ability for mitigating or reducing damage further than they currently have in their arsonal and also some sort of ability/spell that stops them getting screwed over by AOE-ailment moves.

Ontop of that, they'd have to carry additional relevant gear to TP and WS in...

and that's what it would take for me to be content with a redmage meleeing...

[Seriha]

You're kind of hinting on how SE's early attempts at hybrid jobs weren't all that hot. They got it more right with BLU, fumbled with DNC, but steered it more in a good direction despite a few lingering flaws. Frankly, I've always felt Misery mode, and in turn all that follows it, has been underutilized by WHMs. Part of that is lack of melee interest, sure. Another is lack of need. And yes, there's some potential inefficiency to it depending on the target, too. Overall, if someone's of the opinion that something can never happen, I'll just reiterate they're not being creative enough. Things like good hybrid gear, poor damage, and the TP feed argument can all be worked around. Individually, RDMs should be one of the more durable people if in range of AoEs and can take care of themselves while the healers focus on those who can't. Do debuffs suck? Sure. Not every mob's a Malboro, though, and of late with auras, if SE wants us inflicted with a particular debuff for a fight, it's gonna happen even if you have a WHM -na'ing to infinity.

[Supersun]

Honestly, RDM would require some sort of weapon with decent damage, with a stupid amount of m.acc to match out loosing out on an elemental stave.

Alternatively they could just give future non-CC enfeebles native high M.Acc like stun.

People might think that's broken, but I would think that if they tweaked the formulas so it was less of a focus on landing the spell and more of a battle of how potent the spell is so we don't more or less auto-cap potency like we do now I think it would balance out.

I mean the formulas for our current enfeebles seemed more tailored to pre-75 where you likely weren't going to cap those formulas, but as it is now the moment you can ding into errant you'll likely be able to hit enough mind to cap.

If you change the focus of the spell to a battle of potency vs a battle of accuracy then it's not as big of a deal to not be using a staff.

Sure, there are some flaws with the idea such as that Enfeebling skill then more or less becomes worthless, but you could change the formula for future enfeebles so that enfeebling skill also affects potency or even better if you want to get creative, raises the cap of those enfeebles.

Mind you, this would also rely on them adding future enfeebles that actually justify the party slot, but certainly this would be one way to get around the issue of needed staves.

-----

To be fair to the "other forum" they have contributed volumes to our knowledge of the game. Even though it may rival /b in terms of being a hive of scum and villainy that's more due to it's reputation attracting said people like flies. Don't stereotype everyone on the site with that average mentality though because the people that actually contribute a damn tend to be quite the opposite.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

To be fair to the "other forum" they have contributed volumes to our knowledge of the game. Even though it may rival /b in terms of being a hive of scum and villainy that's more due to it's reputation attracting said people like flies. Don't stereotype everyone on the site with that average mentality though because the people that actually contribute a damn tend to be quite the opposite.

I don't doubt it, this is true of anywhere and you can't fault what they've found out about the game..

But the majority I've seen come to this and another board I've been on come only with the intention to troll, and that's rather sad.

I also hate the post screenshots to insult mentality I've seen from them, it just reeks of a lack of anything useful to waste their time on and is rather school playground tactics.

[Duelle]

I also hate the post screenshots to insult mentality I've seen from them, it just reeks of a lack of anything useful to waste their time on and is rather school playground tactics.

If they're actually doing this, I'd say they might want to put their money where their mouth is and actually try to have some sort of discussion on the matter here, rather than troll a thread about RDM melee.

Do you honestly believe that if given a few toys that promote front lining, that it'll change how the playerbase views the job? Nay, that suddenly you'll get to front line?

Depends on how its pulled off, how much is put into role emphasis and what limiting mechanics (if any) are placed while allowing said melee RDM to come anywhere near what the accepted amount of DPS for a front-liner would be. I've seen it done before, and it's worked.

At the end of the day, it comes down to this:
- If they give you some potent melee damage, it'll still be safer and more efficient to back line.
- If they give you some nice front line aoe ability, you'll just be expected to run in, use it and run out (akin to auspice and bar-spells).
- If they give you some sort of buff that helps reduce the damage you (and nearby party members) take, then your soloing capabilities will drastically improve; and that is something we've seen SE dislike in the past.

- While entirely removing the "RDM is not a front line DD" argument.
- Not if there's a mechanic in place that forces you to be in the front line.
- While this is indeed true, this is also a result of SE's developers sitting on their hands and not nerfing the soloing tactics to the ground. As I've constantly said, under any other developer team, it would have been nerfed within hours of being discovered. Its speed would rival the hotfix that nerfed Reckoning Bomb.

Honestly, RDM would require some sort of weapon with decent damage, with a stupid amount of m.acc to match out loosing out on an elemental stave. They would then require some sort of ability for mitigating or reducing damage further than they currently have in their arsonal and also some sort of ability/spell that stops them getting screwed over by AOE-ailment moves.

Job Traits:

- Arcane Combat: Your magic accuracy is increased by your main-hand weapon accuracy while under the effects of composure.

Healing Waltz from /DNC deals with the last one, while the damage taken thing isn't really necessary.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why does Rdm need more abilities for mitigating damage when it already has 2 spells for that, in addition to self pro/shell of second highest level (barring whm with merited versions), and a full line of self target bars (also blink but it rarely gets used)? If subbing Nin both utsusemei spells as well.