On Red Mage melee...

[Supersun]

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Blind II is more or less the same as Kurayami: Ni both being around -30 eva

Paralyze and Jubaku are well...hard to test.

Hojo: Ni is 18% and Slow II uncapped is 35%. That's quite a big difference.

Now what ISN'T a big difference is the between Whm and Rdm because the ORIGINAL Slow caps at 30% all by itself, and I'd venture that the other T2 enfeebles don't stray too far from that.

And with Whm supposedly scheduled to get Addle soon the only significant difference between Rdm and Whm enfeebling is Saboteur and the accuracy which I would imagine that Whm probably has enough accuracy land their enfeebles anyway.

But then again given that our current enfeebles do virtually nothing to hinder monster TP attacks (Ninja can actually reduce Monster TP attacks by quite a bit which in that respect they are a better enfeebler) it's hard to justify enfeebling as a needed role in any situation until we actually get enfeebles that mean more then "the spell you cast so your DDs don't have to concentrate as hard with their shadows"

I personally always saw RDM as the master of both Enfeeblement AND Enhancement. I agree that melee only needs small changes to make it acceptable, but when looking at RDM's role as an enfeebler, we should also consider the enhancement role as well. Specifically, where are the gain-ras, or other buff spells that could help an entire party and make RDM relevant once again without changing the dynamics of other classes? After all, RDM has the highest (initial) Enhancing Magic skill too.

SE seems to be trying to make Scholar the new magic party enhancer with a LOT of their new spells being enhancements.

(Obviously ignoring the fact that a lot of their new enhancement spells have been rather subpar and not worth the gem to AoE, but I'd imagine it's only time till they actually make a few spells worth using)

Red Mage on the other hand thematically is a terrible enhancer.

We only have 4 spells that we can cast on other people.

Protect and Shell which nearly everyone gets.
and...
Refresh and Haste

Really our only enhancement spell that is unique that we can cast on other people is Refresh II and even that's not that great. Sure we can give someone 6 MP/tick with it, but since it can't stack with Refresh 1 other jobs are vastly superior at it being able to combine between the Refresh 1 and other alternatives to receive close to 10 MP/tick.

And the only reason we were considered an OMG AMAZING ENHANCER was because we had haste as well.

It's hard to call Rdm an enhancing job when these are the only party casting enhancements he has. Especially when considering that the other 99% of Rdm enhancing spells are self target.

Sure, they could do something drastic like make Haste II and ONLY give it to Rdm and that certainly would earn it it's own spot, but the day they do that is the day I will drop Rdm and XI. Cycling single target buffs is NOT a fun way to play the game. It's just a hassle. Just like CC leave that role to the jobs that actually receive AoE spells.

Really, if you are looking for Rdm to return to the ToA days don't count on it. Whm is what Rdm was then and more and I don't suspect or WANT Rdm to find itself in that situation again.

All I have to say is RDM melee is about as useful as a screen door on submarine. And beyond that, it is perceived by the community as being terrible and something only bad RDMs do. Don't get me wrong, you're all free to do as you please, but don't expect any good group to allow you to melee, and don't expect to be in any top tier LS..

Well of course it is. WHITE MAGES are better at melee then a Red Mage. This is why we are you know, SUGGESTING ideas to SE? Just because Rdm is atrocious at melee now doesn't mean it has to be on the way to 99.

I mean look at Bst pre 75 and look at them now. They are a surprisingly versatile job now.
(Ignoring that the proc like shit obviously)

And really, Rdm is in a tricky spot. The mage homogenization train wreck looms on the horizon at 99 and Rdm has very few ways to grow without flat out copying another job. Really, all we have is enfeebling, types of underused melee, and generalization.

If you can think of some other way for Rdm to grow I'm all ears, but just running through the door shouting that 'Rdm melee is impossible and no one will want it' doesn't help and is short sighted.

Just because you think it's impossible for Rdm to receive a buff that will let them melee doesn't mean a million solutions don't exist.

Certainly if Rdm received a powerful utility in addition to their melee it would certainly have a place.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Well of course it is. WHITE MAGES are better at melee then a Red Mage. This is why we are you know, SUGGESTING ideas to SE? Just because Rdm is atrocious at melee now doesn't mean it has to be on the way to 99.

I mean look at Bst pre 75 and look at them now. They are a surprisingly versatile job now.
(Ignoring that the proc like shit obviously)

And really, Rdm is in a tricky spot. The mage homogenization train wreck looms on the horizon at 99 and Rdm has very few ways to grow without flat out copying another job. Really, all we have is enfeebling, types of underused melee, and generalization.

If you can think of some other way for Rdm to grow I'm all ears, but just running through the door shouting that 'Rdm melee is impossible and no one will want it' doesn't help and is short sighted.

Just because you think it's impossible for Rdm to receive a buff that will let them melee doesn't mean a million solutions don't exist.

Certainly if Rdm received a powerful utility in addition to their melee it would certainly have a place.

Quoting for truth, and maybe so people can realise this thread is about improving their Melee, which is necessary as it's ATROCIOUS now. This thread would not exist if it was great so telling us it's bad is DUMB when we already know this.

[Seyrena]

Really, if you are looking for Rdm to return to the ToA days don't count on it. Whm is what Rdm was then and more and I don't suspect or WANT Rdm to find itself in that situation again.

I should inform you that this is nothing like what I experienced back during ToA. Perhaps it was because of my static party makeup, but I rarely ever had to heal unless things went bad. My only gripe was the single target buffs. I'm with you; I hate having to cycle single target buff spells, and that's exactly what I was saying in my initial post. And remember that I wasn't suggesting that anyone forget about enfeeble or melee relevance as issues for red mages to be concerned about, I'm just trying to look at the whole picture and take whatever improvements I can because as I understand, we're next to gone out there.

[Duelle]

All I have to say is RDM melee is about as useful as a screen door on submarine. And beyond that, it is perceived by the community as being terrible and something only bad RDMs do.

So you're thus in favor of improving Red Mage melee in order to make it useful to a party?

Quoting for truth, and maybe so people can realise this thread is about improving their Melee, which is necessary as it's ATROCIOUS now. This thread would not exist if it was great so telling us it's bad is DUMB when we already know this.

Quoted the quoted for truth for truth.

[Doombringer]

it seems like somebody pops in with this every few pages.. having read the thread title and nothing else....

[Supersun]

it seems like somebody pops in with this every few pages.. having read the thread title and nothing else....

As long as SE doesn't do the same we should be fine XD

Though I do pity whoever has to wade through all these posts.

[Duelle]

As long as SE doesn't do the same we should be fine XD

Though I do pity whoever has to wade through all these posts.

Out of the tons of suggestions in this thread alone, something is bound to stick...well, provided the developers are indeed reading this.

[Seyrena]

it seems like somebody pops in with this every few pages.. having read the thread title and nothing else....

Isn't that the truth. At least take some time to figure out what we're talking about here, people!

Out of the tons of suggestions in this thread alone, something is bound to stick...well, provided the developers are indeed reading this.

Shall I perform the summoning ritu--

The mage homogenization train wreck looms on the horizon

Oh. Uh-oh... >< I said nothing!

[Carth]

Personally, I'd like to see improvements in RDM magic done, to make them useful in Abyssea. There was a time when the RDM was king in terms of healing, enhancing, enfeebling, and crowd control. Now a WHM can cover that quite easily in Abyssea, plus has a much larger curing arsenal available. There's pretty much no point in taking a RDM to Abyssea events now, which is a real shame.

So it's overpowering to get buffed physically, but not overpowering to get buffed in healing, enhancing, enfeebling, and crowd control to the point where we're "kings" of all those aspects?

It goes both ways. Not that I care about melee with event groups myself but it's quite hypocritical to say such a thing, and many players tend to ignore this.

[ManaKing]

I'm going to use BOLD and use short statements so that people don't misinterpret what I say.

WE KNOW RDM MELEE SUCKS.

WHEN WE SAY THAT WE WANT MELEE BUFFS, WE MEAN THAT WE WANT BUFFS TO OUR ENHANCING MAGIC. THAT WAY WE CAN DEAL MAGICAL DAMAGE, ON HIT IN MELEE RANGE AND PROVIDE USEFUL EFFECTS FOR OUR PARTY.

WE KNOW OUR CLASS ISN'T GOOD AT DOING THINGS THAT ARE DESIRED BY A HIGH LEVEL LS.

WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO THINGS THAT ARE USEFUL FOR OTHER PEOPLE, AS WELL AS OURSELVES.

WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE OTHER JOBS FUNCTIONALITY AWAY FROM THEM.

WHEN YOU SAY THAT RDM ISN'T GOOD AT MELEE, GOOD IN PARTY COMPS, AND IS GENERALLY UNDESIRABLE; YOU MAKE US FRUSTRATED BECAUSE YOU JUST VALIDATED THIS, AND ANY OTHER THREAD LIKE IT, THAT IS ASKING FOR IMPROVEMENTS TO RDM.

WE ARE ASKING TO PLAY RDM AS A JOB THAT IS DESIRABLE, VIABLE, AND HAS IT'S OWN UNIQUE ASPECTS; JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER JOB IN THE GAME.