On Red Mage melee...

[HFX7686]

...

If that's your set-up the only way Rdm would ever be useful to you is if he could proc well.

And given that SE has said they have no immediate plans to add more abyssea related content and that the procing systems in newer endgame content is different then abyssea people may start to realize that the current mentality of what's a powerful job is pretty much soley hinged on how well it can proc.

In fact, in dynamis at least, hybrid jobs are MUCH more valuable then specialist jobs when trying to farm currency and NM pops.

People have already started finding out that trying to approach newer content like you would abyssea content where you have a Mnk tank and a Whm curebomb just doesn't work.

SO yeah, when discussing future balance you are going to have to remove your notions of what's useful in abyssea and look at the merits of the job itself as opposed to how well it can proc or TH.

You misunderstand. WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, BLM is the party set up we use for everything, regardless of being in Abyssea or not. This has been our set up for a couple of years now. It's a very solid set up for pretty much every event in the game. I could change the BRD to a RDM but my MNKs would scream bloody murder for losing their Marches. I could add a RDM to the BLM party but I'm not sure what the RDM would be doing cross party since Enhancing doesn't cast cross party.

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Crowd control is rare and certainly should not be the only focus of a RDM. As it stands RDM has nothing it can do in a party, so as far as this game is going they need to fix that, or remove the job.

It this is true (and I suspect that it is not quite true sadly) then you present an excellent argument for why enfeebling magic really needs to be buffed.

Crowd control isn't that rare. My group generally has 4-5 mobs going at the same time. We like to be efficient.

I forgot about Enhancing magic. That's another place RDM could be buffed as well, to surpass SCH and WHM. I'd like that.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I just don't invite dancers. Right now my party make up is: WHM BRD MNK MNK THF BLU, and in a second party all by himself: BLM. The MNKs and THF sometimes rearrange jobs to WAR, NIN, THF. Where am I going to fit a melee RDM in that?

I don't think there's a way to buff en-spells enough to make it worth RDMs meleeing. Either the melee and damage mages don't have problems or you don't want the RDM in close range of the mob or giving it TP.

I still think enfeebling, especially crowd control, should be the focus. It takes skill and knowledge for a single rdm to be able to handle a large group of mobs without a blm back-up sleepgaing. I think a rdm keeping a bunch of mobs in hand would be much more stylish than meleeing.

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Crowd control is rare and certainly should not be the only focus of a RDM. As it stands RDM has nothing it can do in a party, so as far as this game is going they need to fix that, or remove the job.

[Seyrena]

I personally always saw RDM as the master of both Enfeeblement AND Enhancement. I agree that melee only needs small changes to make it acceptable, but when looking at RDM's role as an enfeebler, we should also consider the enhancement role as well. Specifically, where are the gain-ras, or other buff spells that could help an entire party and make RDM relevant once again without changing the dynamics of other classes? After all, RDM has the highest (initial) Enhancing Magic skill too.

[Duelle]

Specifically, where are the gain-ras, or other buff spells that could help an entire party and make RDM relevant once again without changing the dynamics of other classes? After all, RDM has the highest (initial) Enhancing Magic skill too.

Sorry, but I am 100% against further encouraging buff-botting. It's an archaic niche that has been done away with in modern design for good reason.

[Supersun]

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Blind II is more or less the same as Kurayami: Ni both being around -30 eva

Paralyze and Jubaku are well...hard to test.

Hojo: Ni is 18% and Slow II uncapped is 35%. That's quite a big difference.

Now what ISN'T a big difference is the between Whm and Rdm because the ORIGINAL Slow caps at 30% all by itself, and I'd venture that the other T2 enfeebles don't stray too far from that.

And with Whm supposedly scheduled to get Addle soon the only significant difference between Rdm and Whm enfeebling is Saboteur and the accuracy which I would imagine that Whm probably has enough accuracy land their enfeebles anyway.

But then again given that our current enfeebles do virtually nothing to hinder monster TP attacks (Ninja can actually reduce Monster TP attacks by quite a bit which in that respect they are a better enfeebler) it's hard to justify enfeebling as a needed role in any situation until we actually get enfeebles that mean more then "the spell you cast so your DDs don't have to concentrate as hard with their shadows"

I personally always saw RDM as the master of both Enfeeblement AND Enhancement. I agree that melee only needs small changes to make it acceptable, but when looking at RDM's role as an enfeebler, we should also consider the enhancement role as well. Specifically, where are the gain-ras, or other buff spells that could help an entire party and make RDM relevant once again without changing the dynamics of other classes? After all, RDM has the highest (initial) Enhancing Magic skill too.

SE seems to be trying to make Scholar the new magic party enhancer with a LOT of their new spells being enhancements.

(Obviously ignoring the fact that a lot of their new enhancement spells have been rather subpar and not worth the gem to AoE, but I'd imagine it's only time till they actually make a few spells worth using)

Red Mage on the other hand thematically is a terrible enhancer.

We only have 4 spells that we can cast on other people.

Protect and Shell which nearly everyone gets.
and...
Refresh and Haste

Really our only enhancement spell that is unique that we can cast on other people is Refresh II and even that's not that great. Sure we can give someone 6 MP/tick with it, but since it can't stack with Refresh 1 other jobs are vastly superior at it being able to combine between the Refresh 1 and other alternatives to receive close to 10 MP/tick.

And the only reason we were considered an OMG AMAZING ENHANCER was because we had haste as well.

It's hard to call Rdm an enhancing job when these are the only party casting enhancements he has. Especially when considering that the other 99% of Rdm enhancing spells are self target.

Sure, they could do something drastic like make Haste II and ONLY give it to Rdm and that certainly would earn it it's own spot, but the day they do that is the day I will drop Rdm and XI. Cycling single target buffs is NOT a fun way to play the game. It's just a hassle. Just like CC leave that role to the jobs that actually receive AoE spells.

Really, if you are looking for Rdm to return to the ToA days don't count on it. Whm is what Rdm was then and more and I don't suspect or WANT Rdm to find itself in that situation again.

All I have to say is RDM melee is about as useful as a screen door on submarine. And beyond that, it is perceived by the community as being terrible and something only bad RDMs do. Don't get me wrong, you're all free to do as you please, but don't expect any good group to allow you to melee, and don't expect to be in any top tier LS..

Well of course it is. WHITE MAGES are better at melee then a Red Mage. This is why we are you know, SUGGESTING ideas to SE? Just because Rdm is atrocious at melee now doesn't mean it has to be on the way to 99.

I mean look at Bst pre 75 and look at them now. They are a surprisingly versatile job now.
(Ignoring that the proc like shit obviously)

And really, Rdm is in a tricky spot. The mage homogenization train wreck looms on the horizon at 99 and Rdm has very few ways to grow without flat out copying another job. Really, all we have is enfeebling, types of underused melee, and generalization.

If you can think of some other way for Rdm to grow I'm all ears, but just running through the door shouting that 'Rdm melee is impossible and no one will want it' doesn't help and is short sighted.

Just because you think it's impossible for Rdm to receive a buff that will let them melee doesn't mean a million solutions don't exist.

Certainly if Rdm received a powerful utility in addition to their melee it would certainly have a place.

[Karbuncle]

You are aware that RDM's enfeebling spells are on par with NIN's if the RDM puts 5 merits in it right? So even doing the enfeebling rule of RDM they still absolutely suck at it.

Crowd control is rare and certainly should not be the only focus of a RDM. As it stands RDM has nothing it can do in a party, so as far as this game is going they need to fix that, or remove the job.

Thats a steaming load.

Slow II, Paralyze II , are much more powerful than Hojo: Ni, Kurayami: Ni. Perhaps if you don't cap MND v Enemy MND, you may be on to something, But with 5/5 Merits and capped potency via MND vs Enemies MND, They are far ahead. Its a noticeable difference.

(Blind II I believe is the exception)

[Seriha]

Considering actual crowd situations are fairly rare for common play, doubly so now with Dynamis being different, forcing RDMs to rely on a spell from a subjob just to be useful seems kind of, I dunno, wrong? There's nothing particularly elegant about using Sleepga, and having a BLM around for Sleepga II is obviously more beneficial for overlapping purposes without mobs having that brief period of waking and all the risks that entails if it's just a RDM using Sleepga. Sure, you might get a resist now and then and stragglers would get slept with the single-targets, but calling that difficult or elegant just seems... off. And compared to BLU, who has AoE slow, blind, gravity, some conal paralyze, and other goodies, they seem much more like the control go-to guys for diversity, with SCH being runner up with Manifestation Grav/Bind/Stun.

[Aleste]

Someone mentioned gain-ra's. They're called Boost- spells and they belong to whitemage.

I had always pegged redmage as the single target enhancer, with whitemage being the AOE enhancer, which when looking at their native spell listing makes sense.

Interesting math: WHM/SCH with light arts and gear has a higher enhancing magic skill than RDM with gear. Although the skill difference is minor (~8 skill), rdm's enhancements will last longer due to their af3 cape.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Someone mentioned gain-ra's. They're called Boost- spells and they belong to whitemage.

I had always pegged redmage as the single target enhancer, with whitemage being the AOE enhancer, which when looking at their native spell listing makes sense.

Interesting math: WHM/SCH with light arts and gear has a higher enhancing magic skill than RDM with gear. Although the skill difference is minor (~8 skill), rdm's enhancements will last longer due to their af3 cape.

6 to be exact, unless you get equipment with the augment "Enhancing Magic Skill" that said, RDM EA+2 gives an increase of ~92.5% duration (why they couldn't just make it 100% I don't know) under composure, so it's a massive pity they gain very little enhancing spells for the party.

[Neisan_Quetz]

+ Af3 feet + 5/5 Set bonus.