On Red Mage melee...

[Neisan_Quetz]

I find shiva more of a threat if they have beyond, and depends if the Rdm is getting marches it should be no contest (inside or outside).

[ManaKing]

You're free to do what you want solo or with your friends.

Also, your 'I'm going to do only what's fun without regard to anyone else!' attitude won't fly in the real world.

EDIT: You gotta face facts at some point: RDM is a strong mage but truly terrible melee DD. Only SCH and BLM are worse at meleeing. It could be worse though - RDM could be in the same boat of relative uselessness as SCH.

You're right, it won't fly in the real world. BUT it will fly in a fantasy world that is designed to be fun to play. I'm not sure if you are aware of this but FFXI isn't the real world.

SCH can support a full alliance easier than a RDM. As a mage, they actually are desirable and their job was designed to be a pure caster. Why are you comparing 2 things that aren't the same?

[Eeek]

You're right, it won't fly in the real world. BUT it will fly in a fantasy world that is designed to be fun to play. I'm not sure if you are aware of this but FFXI isn't the real world.

SCH can support a full alliance easier than a RDM. As a mage, they actually are desirable and their job was designed to be a pure caster. Why are you comparing 2 things that aren't the same?

Nothing about SCH makes it more desirable than WHM, RDM, or BLM. Its only use is to fill a gap in the back line when a more useful mage job is not available. And no one invites SCH except as a last resort. They're no longer the best healer, nuker, or enfeebler. They're second-tier across the board with most their AoE tricks available via subjob.

"I'm not sure if you are aware of this but FFXI isn't the real world."

Your melee RDM is about as useful to me as a screwdriver in the real world when I need to change a tire. Wrong tool for the task.

[ManaKing]

Nothing about SCH makes it more desirable than WHM, RDM, or BLM. Its only use is to fill a gap in the back line when a more useful mage job is not available. And no one invites SCH except as a last resort. They're no longer the best healer, nuker, or enfeebler. They're second-tier across the board with most their AoE tricks available via subjob.

"I'm not sure if you are aware of this but FFXI isn't the real world."

Your melee RDM is about as useful to me as a screwdriver in the real world when I need to change a tire. Wrong tool for the task.

Sorry you don't know how useful strategems are? Tier V nukes are still Tier V nukes. I guess you just don't value classes that aren't the best at something so that you can fit it into your minimalist LS designs.

Once again, not the real would, your analogy is crap. Please realize you are playing a game and that people play them to have fun, not do what you think they should. Your mentality is unattractive at best.

[Doombringer]

the bottom line is, if we are unhappy with the job, we will stop playing it..

if that makes us unhappy with the game, we will stop playing it.

it's not real life, because we can very easily just stop playing it.

to the bandwagoners that's obviously no problem, for every "real" rdm that quit merit pts after toa, (for example) there were 15 bandwagoners that just jumped on the job for easy merits. who cares if they're wearing full af full time, and have no gear OTHER Than an ah-able max mp set and a light staff. so long as there not meleeing right? course they wouldn't know which end of the sword to put in the mob anyway... and they'd probably find a way to get dia resisted, assuming they ever cast anything that wasn't refresh haste or cure. but hey, at least they don't wanna melee right? they just shut there mouths and stand in the corner, like good little boys and girls.


but for those of us that actually picked this job back in 2003, the current state of it is unnaceptable. and since whm is the "hot" mage right now, we're no longer the vast minority.

[Duelle]

to the bandwagoners that's obviously no problem, for every "real" rdm that quit merit pts after toa, (for example) there were 15 bandwagoners that just jumped on the job for easy merits. who cares if they're wearing full af full time, and have no gear OTHER Than an ah-able max mp set and a light staff. so long as there not meleeing right? course they wouldn't know which end of the sword to put in the mob anyway... and they'd probably find a way to get dia resisted, assuming they ever cast anything that wasn't refresh haste or cure. but hey, at least they don't wanna melee right? they just shut there mouths and stand in the corner, like good little boys and girls.

but for those of us that actually picked this job back in 2003, the current state of it is unnaceptable. and since whm is the "hot" mage right now, we're no longer the vast minority.

Well said.

As far as wrong tool for the job, we've been the wrong tool for everything given how our class was put together. It is balanced around restrictions that don't exist and clearly against the overly efficiency-obsessed playerbase, and instead of actually doling something about it, the creators of this mess have sat on their hands while the melee camp has been asking for changes, buffs or (in the case of some of us) a full re-design.

This thread has seen a ton of decent ideas on how to make it work. It's not like we don't want anything to change. And the JP players seem to feel the same way seeing how they have their own melee RDM thread.

[ManaKing]

Hey here's a stat that works in the real world, 25. That's the number of pages that are in this thread.
245. That is the amount of posts for this thread.

The only other thread that has more than 200 posts is in the NIN forums and it is on the importance of throwing skills that they feel are getting neglected. Throwing skills are a part of ninjas iconic heritage and the die hard ninjas don't want it getting phased out for more dual wield buffs that cater towards being bland DPS.

This isn't a trifle to swept under the rug in favor of efficiency gaming. It is a legitimate grievance that a portion of the player base feels strongly about. The cap is finally getting raised and we don't want to be misrepresented by people that will abandon this class the second that it isn't the best at something they deem desirable. We are diehard RDMs and we don't want to be your party's buff bitch or heal whore. We want to wear scale mail, melee proficiently, and cast spells. We want to be our own class instead of being the class that everyone else wants to pigeon hole us into. We want our class identity back so we can go back to having fun playing our class in real parties.

[Seriha]

Meh, if we're gonna play the RL card, I'd say the guys on Wall Street are certainly playing by their own rules at our expense, and we can't exactly kick them from our party. Yes, we know some seek entertainment in efficiency, but if you think about it, we're attempting to improve RDM's efficiency in a manner that doesn't exist yet. To assume the game would be better off without it is narrow-minded folly. However, we also know SE can't half-ass it, tweak one or two things, and then be like, "All fixed!"

[Seyrena]

but if you think about it, we're attempting to improve RDM's efficiency in a manner that doesn't exist yet. To assume the game would be better off without it is narrow-minded folly. However, we also know SE can't half-ass it, tweak one or two things, and then be like, "All fixed!"

I think the first step would be to rework Enspell II and add a few more levels of Fencer. That can't be all that hard, can it?

From the first page:

It's not so much the job, so much as the player base that makes it impossible. Of course some adjustments would help, but i don't think it needs anything major.

[Seriha]

It's a start, but it certainly wouldn't be enough. As is, the T2s need to be as potent as T1s hitting twice, minimum, without the silly build-up time. Their -resists are practically unneeded and/or useless and I've never been a fan of the cross-relation they share in that the element you're using isn't the one weakened since enspells already risk resist rates on harder prey.

More specific to additional effects, the fact enspells don't really play nice with Sambas or special weapons is also something that needs looking into. This hurts RDMs and SCHs if they happen to be partied with a DNC since you can't Accession an Enspell for some added damage to your DDs. This would be like Chaos Roll and Minuets and not stacking if you wanted to relate BRD and COR.