On Red Mage melee...

[Seriha]

Yes, it can be hard to convince people building parties to put you in a non-support slot but that's a problem to be solved via "public outreach" rather than trying to re-shape the class from the ground up.

Sorry, but the time for diplomacy has come and gone, and the community has roughly spoken through their criticisms and lack of acceptance. If SE has any intention of maintaining the themeliness of the job, they need to tweak something, be it a bunch of subtle things or one really big thing. Good faith has gotten us nowhere and nobody sane will think 80% is as good as 100% if all you need is a DD.

[Thelron]

True, and the outreach would need to be more on SE's side (making content that actually rewards players for using all of the game's mechanics again and then clubbing people over the head with a clue-stick insofar as RDM and a few other jobs are concerned) anyway, something I don't hold out all that much hope for. At the same time though I just don't like the idea of re-working a job's theme so heavily as to give us truly respectable DD capabilities without having to get our offensive magic involved any more (just having an en-spell up shouldn't cut it... they just (should) catch us up with the heavier weapons we can't use, much like phalanx takes the place of chain and plate armors). Maybe if we had a B/B+ elemental skill or something you could ignore the lack of SCs and such without being at the point where we could *just* nuke but I'd rather they not mess with the *job* any more than they have to to keep it in line with growth it's so far missed out on and that they get the gameplay back to its roots so a whole host of problems can be cleared up, including this 80%/100% crap- plenty of primarily-DD jobs struggle to clear 80% at any given point depending on what "everyone" is focused on at the time (case in point, where have all the bandwagon SAMs gone? Haven't seen all *that* many wyverns flying around lately either). Again, that's more a sign of something wrong with the underlying design, not that the suddenly out-of-favor jobs need major changes.

Granted, I'd *love* to be able to run out and show up a bunch of MNKs or what have you, but it'd be pretty hollow if it was just a matter of "buff and go" and didn't really involve what the rest of the group was doing.

[Seriha]

While vacuum states don't happen as number crunchers would want us to believe, there is still some validity in comparisons. Back when we were 75 and sitting at 250 skill, other DDs had their 269 or 276 in their primary weapons. That's 17.1 to 23.4 more ACC, or 8.5-11.5% more hit-rate, give or take some rounding and DEX. We also had less ATK as a result, nor really adding the eventual change to two-handers that improved the benefits of STR/DEX. Factoring merits is a bit of a wash since they can just merit their own weapons. Nowadays, we're 19 sword points behind BLU, which is basically the same gap as the old days. Composure helps our ACC some, sure, but a good BLU will also likely have the ACC trait via Disseverment and another spell like Vanity Dive or Frenetic Rip. Further consider that their melee gear has grown while ours largely hasn't, and the numbers just continue to pile against us before we even start considering our nukes to their spells, and so on. As is, our best martial sets could never achieve a good balance of the holy trinity of ATK/ACC/Haste. It's usually just one at the expense of others while other jobs are now adding more DA/TA, Crit Bonuses, etc..

Now, the real grief in assumption is that you could be the pimpest of RDMs with Almace, capped Haste, and basically the best we have to offer right now. Yet, when it comes time to LFG, that random party leader will no doubt take the full perle WAR over the RDM because "RDMs aren't a DD," "You're red MAGE," "You feed too much TP," or whatever other argument they'll dig for. We may very well be 180% of that gimpy WAR, but that's not a risk people are willing to take, nor am I of the belief that we should have an Almace and other top-end gear to even enter consideration. Number-wise, though, pit the best a WAR can offer to the best RDM and it's no contest, the WAR eats us for breakfast, craps us out, then asks for more. As it should be? Well, reasonable RDMs aren't looking to out-DD them, but since the highest offense in the shortest period of time tends to be FFXI's most winningest strategy, we're SOL physically.

[Duelle]

Maybe if we had a B/B+ elemental skill or something you could ignore the lack of SCs and such without being at the point where we could *just* nuke but I'd rather they not mess with the *job* any more than they have to to keep it in line with growth it's so far missed out on and that they get the gameplay back to its roots so a whole host of problems can be cleared up, including this 80%/100% crap- plenty of primarily

The *job* has been built on a bad foundation since the beginning. It's been band-aid fix after band-aid fix since then, not including our image with groups taking a hit when the likes of Avesta started soloing gods.

So, unless they really have decided not to care anymore you can't really balance a job *without* considering the implications of SCs, otherwise you end up with another SAM-bandwagon problem. If they *have* decided they want to just ditch the whole mechanic then that gives a lot more room to legitimately pump up the base capabilities of the job, but if they ever focus on that again you make it just plain broken.

They've tried everything short of saying "here's free 30,000 exp for every time you skillchain in a party" to get people to skillchain. It hasn't work and does not work at the moment.

We *have* plenty of magic WSs available (all the ones you listed, in fact, and we can indeed do quite well with them), and the "dark shadow of support" only lingers if you're trying to do something you're not in the party for (which is where a good bit of the knee-jerk anti-melee crap started in the first place).

Those will matter the day we can get dual wield to offhand Joyeuse/Khanda/random multi-hitter just like everyone else who is glued to one-handed weapons so we can attempt to keep up. What I mean by the dark shadow of support is that as long as you have those "desired" support spells, you're going to keep being asked for them one way or another.

Nobody invites a Red Mage to melee. People "knew" that DRG was gimp, people "knew" that NIN was better than PLD, and people "know" Red Mage is not a DD, much less front-liner. And yes, the time for words and discourse with the playerbase is over. A couple of brave souls went down that route several years ago. On Allakhazam, we had NinjaWarrior, who posted parses upon parses as a melee RDM and people either nuked him with lolmelee or simply disregarded his words. Things are they are will not change that. We need something bigger.

The 80% thing does not work. I can think of an example that could help illustrate the point, too.

[Supersun]

(case in point, where have all the bandwagon SAMs gone? Haven't seen all *that* many wyverns flying around lately either). Again, that's more a sign of something wrong with the underlying design, not that the suddenly out-of-favor jobs need major changes.

It's not as much of the underlying design as it is with the current proc system that some jobs are miles better at procing then others.

[EricBiggs]

I tend to agree, Red Mage should have more ability in Melee. With the less then flashy En- II spells not working with any multi-hit item or ability, the sheer lack of attack boosts of any kind, and with several other jobs (SAM,BLU,PUP) being able to self skill-chain, what is the point in wielding a sword that has no point? Our enfeebles should have greater range of mobs that are affected then most(if not all) other magic. Perhaps higher parry, or faster single-handed strikes with rapier class weapons, something to make this a more desirable job for melee.

[Luces]

While vacuum states don't happen as number crunchers would want us to believe, there is still some validity in comparisons. Back when we were 75 and sitting at 250 skill, other DDs had their 269 or 276 in their primary weapons. That's 17.1 to 23.4 more ACC, or 8.5-11.5% more hit-rate, give or take some rounding and DEX. We also had less ATK as a result, nor really adding the eventual change to two-handers that improved the benefits of STR/DEX. Factoring merits is a bit of a wash since they can just merit their own weapons. Nowadays, we're 19 sword points behind BLU, which is basically the same gap as the old days. Composure helps our ACC some, sure, but a good BLU will also likely have the ACC trait via Disseverment and another spell like Vanity Dive or Frenetic Rip. Further consider that their melee gear has grown while ours largely hasn't, and the numbers just continue to pile against us before we even start considering our nukes to their spells, and so on. As is, our best martial sets could never achieve a good balance of the holy trinity of ATK/ACC/Haste. It's usually just one at the expense of others while other jobs are now adding more DA/TA, Crit Bonuses, etc..

Now, the real grief in assumption is that you could be the pimpest of RDMs with Almace, capped Haste, and basically the best we have to offer right now. Yet, when it comes time to LFG, that random party leader will no doubt take the full perle WAR over the RDM because "RDMs aren't a DD," "You're red MAGE," "You feed too much TP," or whatever other argument they'll dig for. We may very well be 180% of that gimpy WAR, but that's not a risk people are willing to take, nor am I of the belief that we should have an Almace and other top-end gear to even enter consideration. Number-wise, though, pit the best a WAR can offer to the best RDM and it's no contest, the WAR eats us for breakfast, craps us out, then asks for more. As it should be? Well, reasonable RDMs aren't looking to out-DD them, but since the highest offense in the shortest period of time tends to be FFXI's most winningest strategy, we're SOL physically.

Not true I go all the time and DD sometimes I'll haste/refresh 2(2/5+2 gear hands and legs, 5//6 on head, 3/9 on body, 0/6 on feet), but I say DD main, I will not main heal, dd atmas, emergency cure only.
You will still out perform 70% of the other people who come out to abyssea shout partys, and be on par with about like 12% more.

I'm an Almace rdm finished my 85 about a month ago, so far 3/14 nyzul armor dropping on 80 runs all 3 askar. As far as ws peice goes I'm only missing Antares harness, MKDE head, and Snow Gorget(which I'll get this week). Haste I'm missing Zelus tiara, dusk gloves, or feet, +1(just need one of them I'll have it soon as well), ASA legs(haste +3% pdt -4%) and the new haste da/ta Chalmecec trousers or whatever they are called. Still missing some pdt gear as well, but improving as fast as I can. The ws is sweet it's amazing in abyssea with the right atmas I can average 4k on regular mobs and 3k on nm's, using red curry bun on /nin or /war(/war usually averages about 200 damage higher). Which is great for a rdm and my crit damage is off the chart inside abyssea. Outside the lack of the "perfect" rdm gear being so far behind everyone and everything else rdm takes a hurt to this. The new war ja Blood Rage helps, but you can't always have that or have it up. Red curry buns, and red curry buns +1 are both extremely expensive and sometimes you may have to use pizza like in the new vwnm's so you loose a lot of power. On the plus side It's great to make skillchain's and MB with. That being said my drg can average the same damage per ws, and do more ws's, it can also do crit's with out the aftermath for the same that my rdm can do with the aftermath. Also depending on the situation drg can do more damage and not keep hate(super jump it away). Now once I finish haste set I'll tell you what it's more like. You have to be dedicated purely for this stuff and your still ages behind every other job.

[ManaKing]

Take a look at the Brisk Mask for your head. It doesnt have better haste, but it does have other things that are desirable and not easy to acquire on RDM gear.

[Seriha]

Which is, sadly, taking one step back to take a couple shuffles forward in other areas. BLUs, from their perspective, went from the Turban with 5% Haste to their +1 Kuvuk with 5% Haste, 8 ACC, and 5 Sword skill. +2 bumps up to 6%, 12 ACC, and 7 Sword with the CA boost. Unless you consider the HP/MP a sacrifice, they've not had to make a concession and other jobs got similar perks to their Emp heads.



(Plus I'd like to wear something that's not fugly for a change)

[Supersun]

And unlike Whm our gear selection doesn't actually have enough haste so they can actually pick and choose a few pieces such as using the new 4% haste 4STP head.
(not that they would since dropping the Goliard for an augmented ACP body is a better choice for them)

They can still cap haste even when using that head.

We cannot

Our only choice is to cap with Goading belt, Speed Belt, or Swift belt depending on other slots if they are HQ or not.