On Red Mage melee...

[AyinDygra]

I like Supersun's ideas on the adjustments to "Magic Fencer." I had not considered the stacking of Fencer and Magic Fencer.

Perhaps another idea:

Sword Spells: While related to en-spells, these are more for spike damage, than damage over time. This new line of spells would have accuracy based on the main equipped weapon. These would cost MP and TP to use.

Tier 1-4 Sword Spells: They require the same MP needed to cast the related spell plus 50TP.
A normal physical attack accompanied by the instant cast of the related Tier 1-4 spell. (maybe only up to tier 3? A good candidate for testing on the announced-to-be-opened test server)
Blazing Sword I-IV
Frozen Sword I-IV
Thunder Sword I-IV
Wind Sword I-IV
Stone Sword I-IV
Water Sword I-IV

Other Low Tier Sword Spells:
Envenomed Sword (poison), Bio Sword, Silencing Sword, Slowing Sword, Gravity Sword

Tier 5 Sword Spells: They require the same MP needed to cast the related spell plus 100TP.
A normal physical attack with a chance to critical, accompanied by the instant cast of the related ancient magic.
Flare Blade, Freeze Blade, Burst Blade, Tornado Blade, Quake Blade, Flood Blade

Other High Tier Sword Spells:
Viral Blade (Virus), Addler Blade, Break Blade, Paralyzing Blade, Dispelling Blade, Stunning Blade, Plague Blade

Some notes:
* The physical hit MUST land for the related sword spell to cast.
* Sword Spells would have a longer recast than the related spells that are cast along with the physical attack (add normal casting time to normal recasting time = sword spell recast) to offset the very quick normal casting time (very fast, like physical blue magic.)
* Sword spells cannot be used to magic burst (and they do not interrupt magic bursting conditions either).

[Duelle]

Ayn's idea reminds me of an idea I once had.

Job Abilities
Spellblade (1 minute cooldown): Allows the Red Mage to infuse their weapon with one elemental magic spell, allowing it to take effect instantly. Magic cast through Spellblade counts as if it had been normally casted, thus allowing it to act as a magic burst if used after a skillchain. Requires Sword or Dagger equipped in the main hand slot.

Job Traits
Magic Fencer: Grants TP bonus to spells cast through Spellblade.

* The idea is designed to serve as burst, but meant to also evolve and change at higher levels, where Spellblade would become on-demand burst once Magic Fencer enters the picture instead of being solely used to land a quick MB if needed.
* Spellblade's accuracy is derived from melee accuracy.
* The elemental feedback idea could be tied to spellblade, if deemed appropriate and adjusted accordingly.
* Aside from having a 1-minute cooldown, the actual spell cast through this JA would be put on its own cooldown as well.
* It is also part of a much bigger set of changes.

[Supersun]

Sword Spells

Seems...not necessary. I mean it costs what the normal spell costs +50 TP? Why not just cast normal spell instead.
It also does seem to step on Blue Mages toes as they do tend to specialize in Spike spells. Sure, our damage is magical and theirs is physical, but I'd almost just prefer they buffed Blus magical side if it's not strong enough.

[AyinDygra]

Seems...not necessary. I mean it costs what the normal spell costs +50 TP? Why not just cast normal spell instead.

I guess I should have included more of my reasoning in the notes:

This also grants RDMs access to spells they normally don't have (Ancient Magic, and new enfeebles) given the additional requirement of costing TP as well as MP, so they're not just new spells added to the normal spell list -- this requires the RDM to be on the dangerous front lines to get access to their "full" spell list. RDM can still be useful on the back lines, but this encourages front line participation. (Since this topic is about how to improve RDM melee, I haven't addressed the mage side very much at all, aside from my first idea post with new spells, but I doubt SE would normally just give RDM access to Ancient Magic, etc)

Secondly, as to why not just cast the normal spell instead? They have their own separate recast timers so the same spell can be cast almost instantly, as long as the RDM has TP. (something similar to dual casting or simultaneous casting that has been suggested in the past and was rejected by SE as being "impossible.")

And in reply to the BLU thing... I think BLU stepped on RDM's toes first. >.> ) It's not like there isn't already Black Mage, White Mage, and Scholar casting magic the same as Red Mage... and Dark Knight and Blue Mage casting magic accompanied by their melee... The theme of BLU's spells are completely different from normal mages anyway.

Red Mage has mixed both the Red Mage and Magic Knight of past FF games, similar to FF1's Red Mage, being able to melee respectably, and cast low levels of White and Black Magic for utility. The dual-school casting aspect of the job has really been given to Scholar, while Red Mage has taken on a majority of the aspects of the "Magic Knight" from past FF games. They focus on spell casting on their swords as their unique thing, and the en-spells were a good start. This is the real meat of the job, in my opinion... and it's been lacking due to their magical prowess and the role they have taken on in FFXI society with a lack of WHM's, and the need for refresh in this game's combat system... both pulling RDM away from their focus.

Edit: One more reason to use the Sword Spell: Instant cast of the spell, for the cost of TP. This combines the casting time with the old recast, to make a really long recast timer for the spells instead. This alone would make the sword spells useful for front line casting while meleeing.

[Supersun]

I wasn't referring to the aesthetical factor of stepping on blue mages toes. Sure there are other jobs that are on the front lines casting magic. I was more referring how this essentially mimics the role Blue plays on a more technical level. That being, jobs on the front like casting spells for spike damage.

I certainly believe there's room on the front lines for another type of mage/melee hybrid, but in a sense your idea is more or less mimicking Blue Mage because if you remove the damage types between the 2, magical and physical, it's essentially the exact same thing. Jobs doing spike damage with their spells and only gaining access to all their spells if they are in range...except ours cost TP

I'm not saying there's a way this couldn't work, but as it stands right now that idea just sounds like Blue Mage -1.

I mean there's a variety of different ways to assist on the front lines. We don't need something that is so similar to blue.
(that and the simpler and easier the idea the better chance it has of being added. The dev team can't spend ALL their time on Rdm :P)

[Seriha]

Anyone that thinks a BLU's magical side sucks now hasn't seen a good BLU. Water nukes are probably the most universally potent set with Corrosive Ooze, Regurgitation, and Acrid Stream as front-runners in proper builds. Meanwhile, you get things like a pimped out Charged Whisker allowing them solo AoE burn without facing diminishing damage like BLM's -agas. Thermal Pulse isn't bad as a fire nuke and Everyone's Grudge can be decent if you build toward that, too. I do agree their old magical spells blow and could use a looking over in both potency and MP costs, but that's a matter for the BLU board.

Either way, I just want to advise against clogging suggestions into simple En-effects. As is, the category is basically limited to one, otherwise we could benefit from Sambas or not run into conflicts with weapons with their own innate effects. Even with just six Enspells, we tend to stick to Enblizzard since most also have Ice merits to help with MACC. Suggesting a RDM just spell spam to cycle them between swings would be, in turn, quite silly since they could just cast the normal versions unless the En-whatevers are way, way better. Of course, you're not at all helping our casting burden or addressing how useless enfeebles tend to be on fodder mobs or detrimental to counter tanks who don't want their NMs slowed/para'd so they can kill more quickly.

Overall, multi-purpose debuffs would be good. Cutting down on our need to cycle would be another step. When we get the freedom of time, we're given a greater luxury to actually be versatile and not focused on one thing. And no, Double Cast will not help this no matter how many times someone inanely suggests it.

[Doombringer]

i'd like to see a spell that has slow para blind addle and a def/att down effect all rolled into one. make it lvl 99 rdm only.. call it.. "cripple" or something. if a mob is immune to any particular aspect of cripple, the other effects still land.

each individual effect would be at around the potency of the unmerited spells... so slow1, para1, blind1, dia2 and bio2. (not literally dia2 and bio2, i know they don't gel.. but that much def/att down, maybe no dot at all)

give it a quick cast/recast time, and you've just freed up a lot of time for the rdm to actually swing his weapon. instead of spending so much time enfeebling every mob, it's dead by the time the last spell lands, you just cripple it.

it's not op since it's all effects you can apply to the mob anyway, slightly weaker. (given that some effects use int to determine potency, and others mnd, and they are all by nature weaker than there merit equivalents) it just lets you do it in one fifth the time.

this could be a helpful utility spell for mid tier mobs, whereas when you move to tougher mobs or nm's an rdm may still choose to use the individual spells, optimized through gear.



it's not a DIRECT melee buff, but it frees us up to actually swing while still doing rdm things, and hopefully bringing back a bit of what has been lost to the job recently.

[Duelle]

i'd like to see a spell that has slow para blind addle and a def/att down effect all rolled into one. make it lvl 99 rdm only.. call it.. "cripple" or something. if a mob is immune to any particular aspect of cripple, the other effects still land.

That would go hand in hand with something else I once came up with.

Job Abilities
Readiness (3 minute cooldown): Allows the Red Mage to cast up to four enhancing magic spells on themselves at the same time. The Red Mage can set these four spells through the Readiness interface. Each spell is put on its own cooldown, and the casting time of Readiness is the average casting time of all four spells before Fast Cast is factored.

To me this is basically Refresh, Haste, Enspell and Phalanx in one shot. Granted, I originally thought of this as part of a melee stance that by nature has longer buff durations (and does away with composure as we know it), but the JA alone would fit what you seem to be looking for.

On the topic of copying mechanics from BLU, let me just say that it is less about copying and more on playing off concepts that make our melee actually relevant to the rest of the things we can do. Directly relevant, at that (you can't have a magic fencer without mixing melee and magic together, and enspells are a step in that direction but not the entire thing). Also do keep in mind that BLU as it is came about because the devs refused to fix RDM at the time and were hoping the melee crowd would jump off RDM to play BLU instead.

[Seriha]

Also do keep in mind that BLU as it is came about because the devs refused to fix RDM at the time and were hoping the melee crowd would jump off RDM to play BLU instead.

Until a dev comes out and says that, it's pretty much player assumption... and popular fodder for the anti-melee crowd. Rather, I see them designing BLU with some of RDM's shortcomings in mind, skirting the staff issue in part by tying physical spell accuracy to your main-hand, keeping their ranges relatively short so they're in melee range anyway, and basically making them quick casting and MP efficient so they can swing more. The general lack of party buffs didn't hurt that last one, either.

[Doombringer]

That would go hand in hand with something else I once came up with.

Job Abilities
Readiness (3 minute cooldown): Allows the Red Mage to cast up to four enhancing magic spells on themselves at the same time. The Red Mage can set these four spells through the Readiness interface. Each spell is put on its own cooldown, and the casting time of Readiness is the average casting time of all four spells before Fast Cast is factored.

To me this is basically Refresh, Haste, Enspell and Phalanx in one shot. Granted, I originally thought of this as part of a melee stance that by nature has longer buff durations (and does away with composure as we know it), but the JA alone would fit what you seem to be looking for.

agreed, it's sorta the other side of the same coin, and would be equally helpful for the same reasons.