On Red Mage melee...

[scaevola]

Saevel had a dumb opinion and I have been explaining why it was dumb.

If it's impenetrable to anyone else, I apologize, but I find calling people dumb a way more rewarding use of these message boards than actually trying to convince anyone of my own dumb opinions, so here we are.

[Llana_Virren]

1) whoever needed seals wasted the time of anyone who didn't by dragging them along to kill something they could have handled without them,

Because no one actually voluntarily helps friends out anymore or plays a MULTIPLAYER game to play with other people....

2) that person/people could have just gone out and gotten kills in without waiting up for other people for omg procs and even waiting a half an hour means a round of kills they didn't get on account of waiting,

I must have missed the part where he said ANYTHING about having to waiting for anything...?
Of course, 2 rounds of 2 drops beats 3 rounds of no drops... just sayin'.

3) just like you don't pay $13 for other people to tell you how to play red mage, I don't pay $13 a month to stand around Port Jeuno shouting/beg my LS mates for handjobs,

Ok, yeah I just re-read the post, and I still can't find where he said anything about waiting for or begging people to help... so would you mind fabricating that for me? Thanks!

[Demon6324236]

So~ what are we arguing about again? SCH being better than RDM or WHM in seal partys? Or Embrava being good in seal partys? Or what?

If its at least 3 hours from light even being a possible proc then it really shouldn't matter 1 way or the other if you bring a SCH or a WHM, or a RDM, SCH I would say is best in the event light procs are not likely to pop up for the reason between its Emp gear, Klimaform, and weather, I'm sure Threnody will land nicely, more than a BLM that has to wait on ES to land it.

Embrava good in seal partys? Well yeah, I can use it, 1 time, every 2 hours, for upto 12.5minutes duration... yay~... taking time for lights is nice so I get the occasional ISL to give me my Embrava back but really I think it more of a waste of time, most people doing seal partys have enough stones they don't normally care, they can throw them at a seal party with no lights with no problem, thus meaning no ISLs, and no Embrava past the 1st cast, so not to much of a point arguing that.

Now if your doing Emp NMs, Bria, Sobek, C-C, the like then yes, you have lights, you should have lights, and you should have Embrava up full time, but at that point you probably have a larger party with linkshell members or friends, enough a WHM should be there for procs, and leave room for SCH, you would have BLM BLU & maybe even a BRD as well to make sure of procs, so thats pointless to argue, when my ls goes for Emps we don't go with 3 people and take forever, we get a bunch of pops, kill them, move on.

Is RDM better in seal partys than WHM? No, it works in a WHMs place, especially if geared well enough, some NMs may take a bit more than RDM, but seals? No, no seal NM in the game is THAT much of a problem, if WHM can heal it, RDM probably can too, some +2 NMs like Apa, yeah, I can see you having WHM over RDM or SCH(if no Embrava) but not on seals, it goes back to the point, if lights day isn't nearby, it wont matter, because WHM procs wont be needed, and in that case, neither is a WHM.

Lastly I don't think anyone is saying procs are pointless, they are obviously better to have than nothing, would I piss & moan that I don't have ALL procs or that I'm wasting a pop without procing it? No, thats stupid, I cant proc everything that walks that is a NM. However if you can proc it, by all means, do it, better to proc, but if you cant don't act like its a waste of time, things can and will drop still even if not as many or as well. Simple as that.

If there is something else I can explain to you please, let me know, this stupid convo is just annoying to me, I like reading things here, sometimes things get my attention, when all the new posts are retarded comments about a WHM being outdone by SCH in a seal party its annoying, wanna know the truth? Its like almost everything else in this game, situational!

[scaevola]

Because no one actually voluntarily helps friends out anymore or plays a MULTIPLAYER game to play with other people....

If you have multiple people, go do something that you couldn't do solo. The entire reason the Abyssea proc system exists is to give you a reason to not solo or dual-box literally everything, but just because there's an actual reason to drag along people you don't need doesn't mean you aren't wasting their time just the same.

I must have missed the part where he said ANYTHING about having to waiting for anything...?
Of course, 2 rounds of 2 drops beats 3 rounds of no drops... just sayin'.

He was questioning why anybody would go to solo something without magic procs. 3 rounds of no drops (which would be rare enough to not expect) is still better than not doing anything in that time because your pocket BLM would rather do something that benefits her.

Ok, yeah I just re-read the post, and I still can't find where he said anything about waiting for or begging people to help... so would you mind fabricating that for me? Thanks!

When talking about playing with other people, I should hope it's implied that you're doing so at a time convenient for all parties, not just you. This necessarily involves waiting, unless you've got 3 or 4 other people completely wrapped around your finger, ready to drop anything and do whatever you want at a moment's notice (which might be what some folks have going but I personally find distasteful).

Again, there may be some reason to schedule your limited free time around other people playing this game, but Abyssea procs are not it. Most DDs can pick a time when they have a solid 1 in 3 or 4 shot of landing blue !! and only need to get the relevant drop once, and you simply don't need enough seals/+2 items in the long term to sweat it. So the group of five targets Yaguarogui and gets done in 2 hours over one night what it takes the soloer 6 hours over the course of a week to finish. Who cares? They both get their stuff by the end of the week.

Empyrean weapons may be another matter, but the only thing that matters there is red, and if you were really serious about it NIN/WAR can solo most of your potential KI mobs with no difficulty.

[saevel]

Wth is being argued here again? If you can shout and make a group for seals you do that, if you can't you go with w/e you can and get seals the best way you can. Is it going to take longer? Of course it is, you're being sub-optimal about it, but going in and trying for some seals is still better than sitting around doing nothing, provided you're not lazy.

Body seal NMs just suck anyway. I got more seals spamming the quest than that tiger (obviously some jobs have terribad quests).

Going Rdm for seal farming means you were foregoing optimal proc conditions in the first place, it has the exact same grellow procs as Sch and you probably should have just brought a Blm.

He's saying that SCH is overshadowing both WHM and RDM in abyssea because it has Embrava. He is saying that procing is not that big a deal and it's completely acceptable to go farm NMs without the goal of procing them.

Overall it's a ridiculously twisted statement that requires him to completely dismiss all concepts of obtaining loot and to instead waste pop sets just to prove that Embrava is better then procing because you kill faster.

[scaevola]

He's saying that SCH is overshadowing both WHM and RDM in abyssea because it has Embrava. He is saying that procing is not that big a deal and it's completely acceptable to go farm NMs without the goal of procing them.

It's not really that complicated, even if you're hung up on proccing. SCH has all the procs RDM has. In order for WHM to have more procs than SCH, you need to wait for a certain time of day, which is worse than not proccing. How will I know I will be available to play whenever Light or Darksday comes up? Do I just wait until tomorrow to complete easy content I could finish right now?

No amount of waiting or proccing will give WHM or RDM Embrava.

Overall it's a ridiculously twisted statement that requires him to completely dismiss all concepts of obtaining loot and to instead waste pop sets just to prove that Embrava is better then procing because you kill faster.

In what way is pointing out that killing faster will generally get you more stuff twisting anything?

I am finishing a Kannagi on my lunch breaks at work. I hop on NIN/WAR, buy the pop items, and finish the KIs for a pop in 40 minutes. If I'm going at a good clip I switch to DNC to kill Briareus, if not I just wait till I get home; either way, that takes ten minutes. It's slow-going (about halfway through helms and 10/50 on skins a month in) but I only do it intermittently because holy shit is this boring. I miss a good number of red procs, of course, but tell me how this process would be more efficient if I waited for a friend to get on WAR and help me out.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

In what way is pointing out that killing faster will generally get you more stuff twisting anything?

This is true in many places, but as far as Abyssea is concerned it very rarely is the case.

Killing 6 enemies in the time it'd take to kill and proc 3 doesn't mean more drops, in 99% of cases it mean no drops.

Trigger > 4 Seal
No Trigger > 1 Seal (if you're lucky, most likely not one you're doing the NM for anyway)

Anywhere but Abyssea, and non Emp Weapon items, however I'd agree with you.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Seal drop rate isn't so low you can't do it without grellow, it's just not advised. If you have no other option then yes I'm going to say it's better to kill without grellow than sit around and do nothing. Blue item drop rates in scars+ heroes is better than in Visions from my experience as well.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Seal drop rate isn't so low you can't do it without grellow, it's just not advised. If you have no other option then yes I'm going to say it's better to kill without grellow than sit around and do nothing. Blue item drop rates in scars+ heroes is better than in Visions from my experience as well.

As a BST when it had TH3 it was very low for me.

Of course if no WHM exists then yes, take SCH, RDM whatever you can get, but in today's Vanadiel the odds of not finding a WHM are ridiculously low (at least on Phoenix.)

[scaevola]

As a BST when it had TH3 it was very low for me.

1) Had it ever been shown that TH affected seal drops? There's no reason why it shouldn't, of course, but I never really noticed a difference between killing things procless on THF vs. other jobs.

2) Very low compared to what? The droprate you'd come to expect from Abyssea thanks to procs, or FFXI in general?