On Red Mage melee...

[saevel]

And I don't think it is just Abyssea where Scholars are overshadowing Red Mages and White Mages.

Nope not even close. You'll always bring a WHM over both SCH and RDM for two reasons, first being yellow light procs (seal / +2 items), second being Hexa during Blunt for blue procs. The only situation you'd bring a SCH over a WHM is if you already had the pops and only planned on doing two Apademaks / Azdaja, then and only then would Embrava actually mean anything. Otherwise your already overpowered for everything else.

Abyssea is about procs pure and simple. Anyone with a half decent brain can easily kill any NM except maybe Azdaja / Apadamek due to their rather unique set of TP moves. And for those two you can easily brew them should things get messy.

Now outside of abyseea, you bring SCH for embrava on super zerg fights inside Legion / Provenance, but we're talking about Abyssea here.

[scaevola]

I get Future Fabulous since it has Magic Defense Bonus, but I don't get Mounted Champion. How is 20HP/tic going to save someone when you're healing for well over 400 on Cure III and 800 on Cure IV? I know you lose a bit of a safety net going Red Mage but there are few things in Abyssea that will be so dangerous a well equipped Red Mage won't be able to handle it, assuming the duo partner isn't a mushpot for brains.

Personally, I don't think there are many situations in Abyssea a RDM couldn't duo-heal at 99 if any at all, but my point is that Abyssea in particular gives the DD/tank a lot of options to take pressure off her healer. Saying "RDM can't heal that!" unfairly gives the DD a pass from having to actually make the duo work.

My mind just went to MC because I happen to like it a lot; obviously FF/+HP/a particular elemental resist atma is going to be the more obvious and consistent choice.

And I don't think it is just Abyssea where Scholars are overshadowing Red Mages and White Mages.

I actually didn't read the end of your post before responding to it. Sorry.

Nope not even close. You'll always bring a WHM over both SCH and RDM for two reasons, first being yellow light procs (seal / +2 items), second being Hexa during Blunt for blue procs.

Yes, waiting all day for a specific time to pop trivial shit for which we could just solo another popset rather than just go right now with what we've got is definitely something people still do in Abyssea.

The only situation you'd bring a SCH over a WHM is if you already had the pops and only planned on doing two Apademaks / Azdaja, then and only then would Embrava actually mean anything. Otherwise your already overpowered for everything else.

It's about killing faster, not simply killing at all.

Embrava is perhaps even more meaningful for KI farming, as the pretty-substantial Regain shaves a TON of time off cycling through potential red procs and a 70ish/tic Regen leaves the SCH "healer" free to go off and find the next SSL chest.

The main reason people gravitated towards the "light/darkday for everything" paradigm was because they were leaning on WHMs to dualbox everything already and going with a different time meant bringing another body. That's no longer relevant now that other healing jobs can easily handle the burden; if you are that desperate for yellow procs out of your healer, you might as well have a BLM/SCH or something come heal. That Hexastrike rounds out the Blunt procs is fine and good but it is yet another fringe benefit to a job you were bringing for totally different reasons; only the greatest of doofuses would have ever refused to pop an NM on the basis of being "only" 14/15 on blue procs.

[saevel]

Umm lightsday / darksday what? Never heard of only going on specific days cause no matter the choice you'd still be missing a ton of procs. If your seal +2 farming you bring a BLM, otherwise your wasting a large amount of time.

Yes, waiting all day for a specific time to pop trivial shit for which we could just solo another popset rather than just go right now with what we've got is definitely something people still do in Abyssea.

You won't be "soloing" another popset anytime soon, not without red procs. If you try to proc blue outside of blunt time then your list of potential procs grows to pretty much every other job in the game. Don't proc blue and your wasting your time.

Abysea has and always will be about hitting procs to maximize loot, hitting procs is like having TH +50, its the difference between 0~2 seals dropping and 2~4 seals dropping. From 1~2 +2 items dropping to 3~5 +2 items dropping. The only time you can get around that is with timed spawn NM's that you just drive-by kill with THF + healer and hope for the best.

I only say all this because we're talking "low man duo", so two people max. MNK + WHM being ~the~ most common for blue !! procs and THF + WHM for anything else. Honestly I don't see the point in killing sh!t with only two people, even if one of them is my dual box WHM. It's a huge waste of time. Instead get these things called friends and take turns helping each other out, you can get loot much faster then constantly killing NM's hoping to get *lucky* without procs. BLM/BRD + WHM + BLU/NIN + THF is an absolute monster low man group. The WHM / BLM can be someone's naked dual box mule, so technically it's still a "duo". You will proc yellow on almost everything you fight along with hitting high TH for tons of drops. If red is an issue then switch the BLU out for a WAR/SAM (gets Jinpu, certain gear can get you Koki). You can now proc both yellow and red on pretty much everything your going to fight. If your needing to fight something for a blue proc then just have someone go change to MNK prior to the H2H time. If you don't have one of those jobs then get off your lazy arse and go level one of them. Abyssea @99 is a joke, the "hardest" NM is easily kill-able by a single person using a single temp item. Those "hardest" NM's are kill-able with low to moderate difficulty by a group of three to four people without using any brews.

[scaevola]

Umm lightsday / darksday what? Never heard of only going on specific days cause no matter the choice you'd still be missing a ton of procs. If your seal +2 farming you bring a BLM, otherwise your wasting a large amount of time.

You were the one to mention yellow procs in the context of WHM.

You won't be "soloing" another popset anytime soon, not without red procs.

If you try to proc blue outside of blunt time then your list of potential procs grows to pretty much every other job in the game. Don't proc blue and your wasting your time.

If you have MNK leveled, going for blue !! outside of blunt time is indeed a waste, but only because blunt time rolls around once every 40 minutes and MNK blows everything else out of the water to a degree that I have a hard time seeing as anything other than an oversight on SE's part.

If you don't have MNK leveled, you shouldn't sweat it, because pretty much every DD can hit a good third of the potential blue procs during at least one phase, and there are maybe a half dozen drops in all of Abyssea worth worrying about that come from NMs with popsets that any DD/WAR capable of not dying can't solo in under an hour.

Abyssea is easy. Only idiots allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good.

Abysea has and always will be about hitting procs to maximize loot, hitting procs is like having TH +50, its the difference between 0~2 seals dropping and 2~4 seals dropping. From 1~2 +2 items dropping to 3~5 +2 items dropping. The only time you can get around that is with timed spawn NM's that you just drive-by kill with THF + healer and hope for the best.

No, Abyssea is about hitting procs when it is convenient to hit procs. Otherwise it is about getting things done in as little time as possible, and procs are only relevant insofar as they help this goal. If you say, "gosh, I had better wait until light/darksday so my WHM can hit yellow procs for +2 items," you're doing it wrong, because right now there is a different NM you could be killing for a substantial chance at a procless +2 item you're after.

I only say all this because we're talking "low man duo", so two people max. MNK + WHM being ~the~ most common for blue !! procs and THF + WHM for anything else. Honestly I don't see the point in killing sh!t with only two people, even if one of them is my dual box WHM. It's a huge waste of time.

You only think that because you don't understand the value of time.

Instead get these things called friends and take turns helping each other out, you can get loot much faster then constantly killing NM's hoping to get *lucky* without procs. BLM/BRD + WHM + BLU/NIN + THF is an absolute monster low man group. The WHM / BLM can be someone's naked dual box mule, so technically it's still a "duo". You will proc yellow on almost everything you fight along with hitting high TH for tons of drops.

To the rather debatable extent that scheduling one's free time around the vast reserves of wasted time in which manchildren populating this game swim is ever worth it at all*, it certainly isn't worth it for the purposes of procs in Abyssea.

If red is an issue then switch the BLU out for a WAR/SAM (gets Jinpu, certain gear can get you Koki). You can now proc both yellow and red on pretty much everything your going to fight. If your needing to fight something for a blue proc then just have someone go change to MNK prior to the H2H time. If you don't have one of those jobs then get off your lazy arse and go level one of them. Abyssea @99 is a joke, the "hardest" NM is easily kill-able by a single person using a single temp item. Those "hardest" NM's are kill-able with low to moderate difficulty by a group of three to four people without using any brews.

NIN/WAR for everything you need a KI from, BST for everything you don't. Just buy Epona's Ring.

*HEY GUYS HAVE YOU SEEN THIS ANIME AND/OR REDDIT MEME

[SpankWustler]

I'm not sure what the point of this current discussion is, at least as pertains to Red Mage.

Much like a pair of short-pants made out of living porcupines, Red Mage's use in Abyssea is due entirely to a very subjective choice made for personal reasons or desperation due to lack of other options. Not that the former can't be a valid reason, it definitely can be when something can be as laid-back as Abyssea can be, but both are totally unrelated to effectiveness and thus any attempt to discuss effectiveness sounds a little ridiculous.

I really, really, really want to continue my stupid simile about porcupine short-pants but I have nothing else to say. So, I looked up a ridiculous picture using Google Image Search to satisfy my juvenile sense of humor.

the vast reserves of wasted time in which manchildren populating this game swim

I am sated.

[Llana_Virren]

No, Abyssea is about hitting procs when it is convenient to hit procs.

It is -never- convenient to -not- hit procs.

[Economizer]

I actually didn't read the end of your post before responding to it. Sorry.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, it was more of an afterthought that I almost didn't include because it falls into the more controversial category.

I probably didn't make myself too clear, because I was actually trying to refer to stuff outside Abyssea as the focus on that statement. Abyssea is pretty figured out and I don't really think out discussion is really going to be saying much except to newer players.

At 99 everything is powerful in Abyssea. Red Mage is powerful in the sense that just like Scholar you get to cure "good enough"™ to cover healing, with the added bonus that you can do other stuff (generally better) then a White Mage, such as Phalanx if you are doing an AoE farm (native MAB for Aeolian Edge doesn't hurt either if doing it more solo-y), or having better nukes. Of course you have procs and other stuff that might throw a wrench in your job selection, but really if it is a situation where you need 100% coverage on procs it is probably a situation where bringing a party rather then trying to super lowman it will get the job done way quicker, and the benefit of having a Red Mage is somewhat lessened.

I don't even know why in this aside which is clearly not aimed towards newer players why I have to explain anything about Abyssea, but I suppose I wasn't as clear as I could be that I was trying to focus away from Abyssea when making such a statement... but that doesn't even matter, because despite this not being the focus, it still generally holds true even inside, particularly for the lowmans that were being discussed before. In Abyssea, you lose what, one blue proc? Since the discussion was about duoing that brings us to yellow procs, which Scholar (and Red Mage) handles with more variety then White Mage does by far. Scholar just gets to come out ahead with common Embrava coverage, better healing, and better nuking. If having less then a handful of procs in certain rare cases is better then healing just as good, having more haste most of the time, and being able to contribute to damage, then maybe there would be merit to those claims. But there isn't, even though that's not the thought I was trying to convey.

[saevel]

Did Tiger NM today for body seals.

BLM/RDM (no /BRD leveled)
NIN/DNC (was just helping)
WHM/SCH (me)
THF/DNC
DNC/NIN (don't ask he had a pop set)

Out of four NM pops here are the results.
NM #1: Yellow Proced, 2 seals dropped
NM #2: Not Proced, 0 seals dropped (nothing dropped)
NM #3: Yellow Proced, 4 seals dropped
NM #4: Yellow Proced, 3 seals dropped

THF had Relic +2 hands, Emp +2 feet and TK in off hand, would proc to at least TH8 on every fight.

I'd say procing yellow was pretty damn important, I'd even say not procing yellow would be a complete waste of time.

If you absolutely HAD to go "duo" then THF/NIN + BLM/WHM or BLM/SCH period, end of story. During that entire fight I didn't have to cast more then a Cure III. At 99 a THF has such high evasion and evasion gear that they would rarely even be hit, with minimal healing they could easily kill any NM while also having a large chance at getting a yellow proc. If we're talking blue then it depends if it's a drive by killing (Loki's ect..) or a poped NM (Ocelot ect..). If it's drive by the just throw TH at it until it drops, if you get luck you can proc it. If it's a planned pop, why in the hell would you not plan out to have the appropriate procing jobs available prior to poping it. You would seriously throw away an EE, Lacovia or Chloris pop on the low ball chance you happen to get the R/EX drop anyway? I've done more Chloris's then I ever want to remember, something like 300+ now, those hands have a low drop rate without blue proc. Lacovie is stingy as hell on that belt without blue proc, heck he's stingy even with blue proc. That's just with the Tahrongi zone NMs, there are still 8 other zones and the Shinyru fight.

So please tell the entire forum how you'd like to throw away you and your partners pop sets just so you can prove how great embrava is on SCH.

In the entire time I've been doing abyssea, I've never once heard SCH being asked for. My LS's resident SCH is asked to come on BLM or MNK constantly to events. SCH ... overshadowing WHM ... wow ... just ... wow.

[scaevola]

Did Tiger NM today for body seals.

BLM/RDM (no /BRD leveled)
NIN/DNC (was just helping)
WHM/SCH (me)
THF/DNC
DNC/NIN (don't ask he had a pop set)

Out of four NM pops here are the results.
NM #1: Yellow Proced, 2 seals dropped
NM #2: Not Proced, 0 seals dropped (nothing dropped)
NM #3: Yellow Proced, 4 seals dropped
NM #4: Yellow Proced, 3 seals dropped

THF had Relic +2 hands, Emp +2 feet and TK in off hand, would proc to at least TH8 on every fight.

I'd say procing yellow was pretty damn important, I'd even say not procing yellow would be a complete waste of time.

If you absolutely HAD to go "duo" then THF/NIN + BLM/WHM or BLM/SCH period, end of story. During that entire fight I didn't have to cast more then a Cure III. At 99 a THF has such high evasion and evasion gear that they would rarely even be hit, with minimal healing they could easily kill any NM while also having a large chance at getting a yellow proc. If we're talking blue then it depends if it's a drive by killing (Loki's ect..) or a poped NM (Ocelot ect..). If it's drive by the just throw TH at it until it drops, if you get luck you can proc it. If it's a planned pop, why in the hell would you not plan out to have the appropriate procing jobs available prior to poping it. You would seriously throw away an EE, Lacovia or Chloris pop on the low ball chance you happen to get the R/EX drop anyway? I've done more Chloris's then I ever want to remember, something like 300+ now, those hands have a low drop rate without blue proc. Lacovie is stingy as hell on that belt without blue proc, heck he's stingy even with blue proc. That's just with the Tahrongi zone NMs, there are still 8 other zones and the Shinyru fight.

So please tell the entire forum how you'd like to throw away you and your partners pop sets just so you can prove how great embrava is on SCH.

In the entire time I've been doing abyssea, I've never once heard SCH being asked for. My LS's resident SCH is asked to come on BLM or MNK constantly to events. SCH ... overshadowing WHM ... wow ... just ... wow.

Leaving aside the issue that

1) whoever needed seals wasted the time of anyone who didn't by dragging them along to kill something they could have handled without them,

2) that person/people could have just gone out and gotten kills in without waiting up for other people for omg procs and even waiting a half an hour means a round of kills they didn't get on account of waiting,

3) just like you don't pay $13 for other people to tell you how to play red mage, I don't pay $13 a month to stand around Port Jeuno shouting/beg my LS mates for handjobs, and

4) the majority of time anybody spends in Abyssea these days is spent making Emp weapons for which procs other than red are irrelevant,

your group wouldn't have been better off with you as a SCH/RDM rather than WHM/SCH because ___

[Neisan_Quetz]

Wth is being argued here again? If you can shout and make a group for seals you do that, if you can't you go with w/e you can and get seals the best way you can. Is it going to take longer? Of course it is, you're being sub-optimal about it, but going in and trying for some seals is still better than sitting around doing nothing, provided you're not lazy.

Body seal NMs just suck anyway. I got more seals spamming the quest than that tiger (obviously some jobs have terribad quests).

Going Rdm for seal farming means you were foregoing optimal proc conditions in the first place, it has the exact same grellow procs as Sch and you probably should have just brought a Blm.