On Red Mage melee...

[Greatguardian]

The rdm melee croud is proud of temper, but we felt 5% is NOT sufficient when many other jobs get superior results at lower levels that require 0 effort to upkeep, additionally its those that want us to not melee who are truely complaining versus our suggestions to see it improved.

Comparing a Red Mage melee spell to a Warrior trait is silly. Warriors melee. That's all they do. If you want to make a fair comparison, compare Red Mage melee buffs to White Mage melee buffs.

[TybudX]

Anybody who isn't happy with a 5% increase in their DoT from a single spell or ability... I can't finish this sentence without having the whole post modded. *** . You think a healthy balance is making it on par with the same trait as a job that doesn't bring anything to the table except damage? So much for hybrid class. I tell you what, I'll trade you whatever WAR's next JA is for Temper.

And yeah, updates are going to keep coming, sure. SE has an awesome track record of making warranted changes to the game over the years. I have faith that they will get to work on all that job balancin' that needs to be done, once they roll out 99.

[SpankWustler]

I would have kicked both of those Parse gimps (the WAR and BLU) from my party if they had ever managed to get into it somehow, assuming I actually gave a crap about their contribution to the group. I have no problem with leeching as long as it doesn't negatively affect me in some way, and that's essentially what they'd be doing.

Yeah, by my standards they would have both either been promptly ejected or sent one-at-a-time to "solo pearlescent light" (on Hanuman, Hedjedjet, a Tier II VNM if I thought it could kill them, etc.) until they felt sad and angry and left. However, I'd never actively make a pick-up party in the first place so I'm not sure my standards are fit to judge such a beast.

It just feels weird to me to judge something that I wouldn't do by my standards, although I totally agree with your judgements.

For the record, I also wouldn't kick Doom from my party since he's proven to be competent at what he does, assuming I don't straight up need him to be doing something else while he's whacking things. Your average Melee Red Mage, or at least the picture that the community has come to enjoy of one, is a full teal joyeuse-swinging retard who uses fast blade, refuses to cast any spells on anyone but themselves, and doesn't gear swap.

Gimp players are gimp and playing with retards is never a good idea, but a retard who casts haste and cures is a million times more useful than a retard who tries to attack things with a B rank weapon, no melee traits, and no melee gear. If we absolutely have to deal with the lowest common denominator, playing Magical Rdm is definitely a safer bet.

I remember the first time I met this dude. It was actually pretty well into my FFXI career. Treasures of Aht Urhgan had been out for a little while and I was leveling Blue Mage. I had just learned Magic Fruit a few levels ago. This was a very good thing, because that fellow seemed to have never used his scroll of Cure IV.

He did, however, know En-Aero. He was casting it because it was Windsday. We were fighting Puks. After some time, I guess when the day changed, he switched to another en-spell but the damage to my will to exist had been done.

I unplugged my modem after about a half hour. I think some kind of experience ring was still active on me.

I prefer to think that this one awful Red Mage is exactly that. One guy who is so awful that he is somehow multiple characters on multiple servers. He is the avatar of awful, who carried awfulness with him and leaves awfulness in his wake. A folk "hero" of awfulness.

I have the opposite experience with lowest common denominators, though. In my experience, somebody thick as a brick tends to flat-out wander off when set to a task as "dull" as providing support. I'd rather such a simple soul just engage the monster in full Teal so I know what I'm getting right out of the bag, with the bonus that the problem will probably "go away" if I choose not to cure it.

I guess what I'm saying in a really roundabout and opioid-dulled way is that I'd be shocked if there were any daft people who could do anything other than auto-engage to much effect; so I feel there is no "safe" role for an incompetent player. Other than soloing Hanuman and other not-total-joke timed spawn monsters in Abyssea. I speak with the voice of experience when I say they're super at that.

[Hyrist]

I'm not happy about it, honestly. You guys are like "If you're not happy about a 5% melee improvement..." When you completely neglect the fact that guess what, RDM comes packed with 15% haste in the form of a spell, something that's often taken for granted by Melee that they always have on them by default, yet, it is far, FAR more substantial than a Brutal Earring.

But what puts me on pause and perplexes me for the moment is how Camate pretty much said "It stacks with everything." Making me wonder if it stacks with multi-attack weapons like Joyeuse. A 5% chance of adding to an OA# that also can add to a weapon skill hit is somewhat more significant. Half of a DA trait may not be so, not given the lack of pure per-hit damage RDM has.

I'm sure a Warrior with (near)Capped pDif would love an additional 5% double attack (if they're not already hitting the cap.) due to how nice that great axe hits for.

But I'm honestly at this point hoping some of the WS fixes gives RDM some more substantial WS numbers otherwise it really won't be all that much of an impact. Every bit is appreciated, but that doesn't quite sate my thirst for more balancing on our Martial end.

[SpankWustler]

Temper is going to be adjusted to increase with enhancing magic skill somehow, so it's going to be more than 5% when it's implemented. Nobody knows how much more and it's really pointless to guess, but it will be more than 5%.

Camate mentions it here. I guess it's not active on the test server yet?

[TybudX]

... you completely neglect the fact that guess what, RDM comes packed with 15% haste in the form of a spell, something that's often taken for granted by Melee that they always have on them by default, yet, it is far, FAR more substantial than a Brutal Earring.

Nobody is taking Haste for granted. Then again, nobody is taking Brutal Earring for granted, either. Last I checked it was a staple TP piece, and one of the best WS earrings in the game.

But what puts me on pause and perplexes me for the moment is how Camate pretty much said "It stacks with everything." Making me wonder if it stacks with multi-attack weapons like Joyeuse.

More than likely it functions exactly like DA trait.

I'm sure a Warrior with (near)Capped pDif would love an additional 5% double attack (if they're not already hitting the cap.) due to how nice that great axe hits for.

It's good enough that 3 Att and 1% DA on an earring is better than anything except Brutal Earring.

[Seriha]

Rather simply, upkeep aside, Temper justifies a higher activation when you consider the spells you should be expecting the RDM to cast. Every single time they do that, they're losing attack rounds. Every single time they do that, they're losing ground against the accepted damage dealers and perpetuating the stereotype regardless of how hard they try. I'm sure at some point you could correlate a required amount of DA and Fast Cast to basically emulate single attacking consistently, but I strongly doubt that'd come from Temper alone.

Either way, I've long since been saying the average RDM needs to be able to graduate past the Joyeuse. The D35 is showing its age for WS and DoT, but it's hard to give up on the raw TP. Making it possible to achieve 25% DA or more through gear and Temper starts opening the door for some of the more accessible swords now knocking on the D60s. Assuming the WS adjustments are decent, this cumulative effect can help eliminate some of the current mediocrity. Still, it's funny seeing some DDs think that RDM would suddenly steal their job with a 10-15% Temper, or that it breaks the class in general.

[Rayik]

Oh yeah, and that COR, prime example of playing it to the limit, right? What is your point, though? Do you think RDM should even be able to melee VW mobs right now?

If you think this, if you actually think this, you are either trolling or haven't even bothered reading any of the previous 130+ pages of this thread. This argument has been put to rest more times than I can bother counting.

The answer is no.

[Rayik]

trust me.. i hate "that guy" meleeing with his joyeuse and errant body even more than you do.. i've been fighting against "his" reputation for years. but we're not ALL that guy.. my rdm was never flagged up and subbing nin at the same time.. ever.... yet people act like i came to there house and punched there child the second i advocate anything other than a staff :\

This is something I don't think a lot of the anti-melee crowd seems to understand about the pro-melees. Those of us RDM's who are serious about melee, we get irritated and annoyed by those Joyeuse/Errant/full time AF melee RDM's worse than you guys do. They are half-assing it(less than half, actually) and only helping to further the negative stigma.

I've melee'd along with other random melee RDM's on magian trials, and seeing them melee in full teal/AF/etc hurts my soul. On these trials it's mostly trash mobs, so I don't give them a hard time. But really, I do get tired of seeing an Almace wielding RDM getting pummeled, while I run in to help them with my Blau Dolch/Evisc(sad, I know).

It's just like any other aspect of this game; if you don't bother to gear properly, or put an ounce of effort into it, then yes you're going to suck.

It's even worse when the mage-geared melee's actually whine about doing so little damage. I saw a RDM/whm in a Aby worm pt in full AF1 gear, single wielding a sword, and crying over not hitting very hard... That's the kind of stereotype we're working against.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Tbh Joyeuse died at 90 for me when I realized the magian swords I was building for Rdm and Blu were better than it in overall damage. Now only my War uses it for red procing since I don't have a Ridill.