On Red Mage melee...

[Hyrist]

No my point is the anti-melee argument is just as sucessptible for reality checks as the pro melee side.

Cut the hyperbole.

As far as the when's and hows of when RDM should be able to function in the front line, that should be up to discussion, right?

Low tier NMs and Fodder mobs are easily within the limits IMO. But I think if RDM is going to contribute anything to the front lines on mobs harder than that, they're going to need something a bit more unique unless the group is overkill on tanking and curing capacity. Which, there are some groups like that.

There's a lot of claims of 'cant and can' going around that everyone wants to try to prove or disprove, but that can be a topic on its own, going around, getting accurate data on how things work or don't work for RDMs that DO pratice frontlining, and confirming/denying their claims.

It doesn't have to be a constant invasion of OTHER threads to harass players who don't play your preferred style.

Believe me when I say most people, don't play to the level you expect them to, that goes for all jobs and all styles.

The standards a lot of the forums try to enforce is nothing short of elitism, and it's frankly kind of upsetting. You can always make considerations about the absolute peak performance if you wish, that's fine. But forcing that expectation on others when you don't know the context in which they play is blind and arrogant.

So let's chill out about it. I don't care who's doing the attacks or counter-attacks in arguments but it needs to stop. It's a pointless derail.

Cause all we're doing is cutting each other down in this thread and both sides end up saying stupid crap in the process. Nobody's perfect no one method is going to be for everyone, and SE's already stated they're not going to be neglecting either aspect. So the bickering really is just there for people's personal gratification.

I'd prefer we try to have a positive spin on things, because we're all playing to enjoy ourselves, and if not, then why do you bother paying to play?

A better discussion to be having is the when's and hows. Not the should's and whys. Because no matter how had you guys argue it down, Front Line RDMS aren't going away. Why not just carve out a good niche for them, and move the discussion to how a RDM could be more attractive and functional in that niche, and what various rewards could be deamed for it?

I for one would like to see some good use for things like Walk of Echoes, hopefully with a few more battlefield type events that will give rewards that are in context for that or similar events. That way you don't have to worry about RDMs going into events that are back-line orientated wanting to lot on Melee gear and rewards. Keep it all in context to what they're doing.

[Doombringer]

my ears are burning. <3 you too gokku.


i'm just thinking out loud but.... even IF i only beat that blu and war because they "sucked"... would they get laughed out of a party?

trust me.. i hate "that guy" meleeing with his joyeuse and errant body even more than you do.. i've been fighting against "his" reputation for years. but we're not ALL that guy.. my rdm was never flagged up and subbing nin at the same time.. ever.... yet people act like i came to there house and punched there child the second i advocate anything other than a staff :\

also, can we drop the conspiracy theory around the parse? it was shown in it's entirety. pretty hard to game the results when you disclose EVERYTHING. i mean if he'd just posted final % with no context (skeletons!) then maybe you'd have a case. example: if counter is an issue, the parse shows counter dmg... just remove that from his total?


it wasn't an epeen thing anyway, did anybody think i was gonna win? i just wanted to put some real numbers into the discussion. people were screaming everything from 80% to 10%. at least now we have a baseline to argue from.

[SpankWustler]

I'd prefer we try to have a positive spin on things, because we're all playing to enjoy ourselves, and if not, then why do you bother paying to play?

Wait, this is why we're playing? I thought we were playing to make other people enjoy themselves less. Dang. Back to the drawing board for me. Time to delete my 4 dozen Diaga macros for every situation. Dang.

[cidbahamut]

Wait, this is why we're playing? I thought we were playing to make other people enjoy themselves less. Dang. Back to the drawing board for me. Time to delete my 4 dozen Diaga macros for every situation. Dang.

I knew my macro palette was missing something.

[SpankWustler]

I knew my macro palette was missing something.

I recommend putting it right next to whatever sleep spells you like to use. In the case of Red Mage, between Sleep I and Sleep II is an excellent spot.

[SpankWustler]

i'm just thinking out loud but.... even IF i only beat that blu and war because they "sucked"... would they get laughed out of a party?

This is one way to look at it, now that you mention it. The Blue Mage was worse than mine and mine is pretty bad, but he wasn't wielding the finest club his moghouse had to offer and he wasn't trying to whack things while wearing Mahatma Slops. I assume he would remain securely lodged in most parties.

As for the Warrior, I'm now thinking that maybe the question was rhetorical and I'm too high on painkillers to get that, because he'd definitely remain in any given pick-up organization.

Also, I think it's awesome that you went into the parse looking for numbers in general rather than trying to wring out one or two more percent. You're a cool guy and I hope you and Gokku get together for something similar after Temper is released.

[TybudX]

The standards a lot of the forums try to enforce is nothing short of elitism, and it's frankly kind of upsetting. You can always make considerations about the absolute peak performance if you wish, that's fine. But forcing that expectation on others when you don't know the context in which they play is blind and arrogant.

Nobody is setting some super standard here for gimps to live up to. I fully understand that there are people out there that are barely capable of keeping up the pace of that RDM mule in the video you posted, but do you seriously think the answer to them being shitty players is to make their melee worthwhile on harder NMs? So that they can auto-attack away while they don't nuke, don't debuff, don't reapply buffs, etc? If you can run yourself out of MP between Converts with whatever support you have, and nobody is going to die if you don't hMP and start spamming cures again, go ahead and melee whatever the fuck you want. I don't care if it's a fodder mob or a tier IV VW mob. More power to you.

What I don't like is people asking for changes or boosts to RDMs melee capabilities when there are only nine levels left to go. Sorry, four levels left to go, and thank you RDM melee crowd for getting us all stuck with Temper on a job that has no real way to use it. It's funny, I'm sure if RDM had gotten Fencer instead there would have been a lot less complaining from the pro-melee side. Situational and mostly useless, vs. a (minimum) 5% increase in melee damage across the board? Yeah, complain about that one a little more. Any real melee job would f***ing kill for a flat out 5% increase in damage.

[Greatguardian]

I would have kicked both of those Parse gimps (the WAR and BLU) from my party if they had ever managed to get into it somehow, assuming I actually gave a crap about their contribution to the group. I have no problem with leeching as long as it doesn't negatively affect me in some way, and that's essentially what they'd be doing.

For the record, I also wouldn't kick Doom from my party since he's proven to be competent at what he does, assuming I don't straight up need him to be doing something else while he's whacking things. Your average Melee Red Mage, or at least the picture that the community has come to enjoy of one, is a full teal joyeuse-swinging retard who uses fast blade, refuses to cast any spells on anyone but themselves, and doesn't gear swap.

Gimp players are gimp and playing with retards is never a good idea, but a retard who casts haste and cures is a million times more useful than a retard who tries to attack things with a B rank weapon, no melee traits, and no melee gear. If we absolutely have to deal with the lowest common denominator, playing Magical Rdm is definitely a safer bet.

As anyone with Corsair leveled knows, you have a lot more options on how to play your job to fit your style when you're actually good at it.

[Crimson_Slasher]

The rdm melee croud is proud of temper, but we felt 5% is NOT sufficient when many other jobs get superior results at lower levels that require 0 effort to upkeep, additionally its those that want us to not melee who are truely complaining versus our suggestions to see it improved.

[Stylin]

but do you seriously think the answer to them being shitty players is to make their melee worthwhile on harder NMs? So that they can auto-attack away while they don't nuke, don't debuff, don't reapply buffs, etc?

Wow, it's like you're not even reading what anybody is saying. Not surprising.

What I don't like is people asking for changes or boosts to RDMs melee capabilities when there are only nine levels left to go. Sorry, four levels left to go, and thank you RDM melee crowd for getting us all stuck with Temper on a job that has no real way to use it.

You seem to be under the impression that the updates are going to stop once we hit 99. If it worries you so much that Red Mage won't get any more magical buffs then go make a new thread. I don't understand why you people need to keep acting like a victim. Take some damn responsibility and quit acting like everything is the big bad boogeyman melee RDM's fault.