On Red Mage melee...

[cidbahamut]

The job is sold as a Magic Swordsman. I want to use magic AND my sword, and you make it out that this is asking too much? Go to www.finalfantasyxi.com, click on "Your Characters", and scroll down to the Red Mage job description. All we're asking for is to actually do what the job does that we signed up for.

Those descriptions haven't been updated in nearly a decade, you really think those count for anything? Heck, if we're going by that then Warrior is some sort of defensive class that specializes in preventing damage to other party members. Guess what? It isn't, just like SpankWustler isn't a master swordsman.

It's not like we're asking to nuke on DRK.

Actually it's exactly like that, except that DRKs seem to know what they're good at and get angry when SE tries to give them magic updates because it doesn't actually do anything for the job.

Your precious "only stand in the back and cast spells" play style is not in any danger, so what do you honestly care?

Because it is in danger? I think someone else already covered it, but time spent developing melee nonsense is development time that should have been spent making worthwhile adjustments to the job.

Why does it bother you that there could be a possibility of the job doing what is was intended to do?

If I wanted to be a SCH, I'd just be a SCH.

If you honestly think playing Scholar is the same as playing SpankWustler, then you probably haven't done a whole lot with SpankWustler. The two play very differently and do not offer the same utility at all.

[Rayik]

Those descriptions haven't been updated in nearly a decade, you really think those count for anything? Heck, if we're going by that then Warrior is some sort of defensive class that specializes in preventing damage to other party members. Guess what? It isn't, just like SpankWustler isn't a master swordsman.

Ya know, it's funny, because last I checked, WAR can tank just fine. They have no problems holding hate, can wear the heaviest armors and have a nice range of -PDT gear as well. Hmm.. Notice none of those other classes on that list changed either? Oh yeah, except RDM, which turned into a completely different job.

Actually it's exactly like that, except that DRKs seem to know what they're good at and get angry when SE tries to give them magic updates because it doesn't actually do anything for the job.

Right, because every iteration of DRK(including Zeid in FFXI) was known for their nuking ability... Swing and a miss. Level DRK and get back to me.

Because it is in danger? I think someone else already covered it, but time spent developing melee nonsense is development time that should have been spent making worthwhile adjustments to the job.

Oh noes, but according to you guys, RDM is already an uber-powerful mage, and many of the anti-melee crowd has been chanting over and over that nothing is wrong or needs fixed, so which is it?

If you honestly think playing Scholar is the same as playing SpankWustler, then you probably haven't done a whole lot with SpankWustler. The two play very differently and do not offer the same utility at all.

You mean aside from the part where you stand in the back and cast both Light and Dark spells, buffing the party, and enfeeble the mob? Yep, nothing alike at all.

[Rayik]

EDIT: On second thought, not worth necro'ing.

[Rayik]

If you won't be content with anything less than a nerf, then shove off. No one wants to hear it. I don't care how you justify it to yourself. Real Red Mages aren't going to sit idly by while you destroy our class.

I love how anyone who disagrees with you is "destroying our class". Get off your high horse, you aren't the spokesman for all of RDM kind.

I think the idea of a stance could be viable, but we're already the worst job at every class of spells that's still considered a mage, so nerfing magic would hurt. Yes, I know what our Enhancing Skill rating is, show me the Enhancing Spells that back it up that someone else(coughWHMcough) doesn't already have better versions of.

I don't want to see our magic side nerfed. It's bad enough every worthwhile NM in the game is either resistant or flat out immune to our enfeebles as-is. I'd honestly be happy with just a better WS, doesn't even need to be Vorpal Blade. A worthwhile magic-based WS and I'll be a happy camper.

[Eeek]

Then it falls on you to convince me otherwise. Start posting your ideas on how to fix RDM melee if you're so convinced the current design can work in making both camps happy. We're all ears.

First off, the melee camp is hilariously misguided.

Secondly, chat with Doombringer if you don't know how to play and gear RDM. Actually, you should probably chat with him anyways since, based on your posts, you're probably doing something (or some things) incredibly wrong. Melee RDM, in the hands of a competent player, seems to do fine in situations where it's reasonable to melee.

I think it's now fair to argue that the RDMs who just need a crutch in the form of melee adjustments from SE - well ... those RDMs simply aren't capable of, for whatever reason, gearing and playing the job properly.

[Eeek]

I love how anyone who disagrees with you is "destroying our class". Get off your high horse, you aren't the spokesman for all of RDM kind.

I think the idea of a stance could be viable, but we're already the worst job at every class of spells that's still considered a mage, so nerfing magic would hurt. Yes, I know what our Enhancing Skill rating is, show me the Enhancing Spells that back it up that someone else(coughWHMcough) doesn't already have better versions of.

Wow...

With glaring mistakes of this caliber, I hope you're not the spokesman for anything.

I hate to break it to you, but Greaguardian is correct, and pretty much every RDM with any semblance of talent shares his opinions.

[Rayik]

Wow...

With glaring mistakes of this caliber, I hope you're not the spokesman for anything.

I hate to break it to you, but Greaguardian is correct, and pretty much every RDM with any semblance of talent shares his opinions.

Opinions are awesome.

I never said I was the spokesperson for anything. I simply want a facet of the job that exists in-game to be a little more viable in a group situation. I don't feel a hybrid job needs to be relegated to one position only. Sort of goes against being a hybrid, really.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Ya know, it's funny, because last I checked, WAR can tank just fine. They have no problems holding hate, can wear the heaviest armors and have a nice range of -PDT gear as well. Hmm.. Notice none of those other classes on that list changed either? Oh yeah, except RDM, which turned into a completely different job.

ITT: Only War can use PDT/MDT gear in addition to having a grand total of one defensive Ja, which nerfs its damage so no one use it.

Right, because every iteration of DRK(including Zeid in FFXI) was known for their nuking ability... Swing and a miss. Level DRK and get back to me.

Except Rdm was never a good melee, it simply had access to strong melee swords and some melee gear - oh wait, that's exactly like FFXI's incarnation of Rdm, damn. It's always had weak melee stats.

Oh noes, but according to you guys, RDM is already an uber-powerful mage, and many of the anti-melee crowd has been chanting over and over that nothing is wrong or needs fixed, so which is it?

Rdm melee capability is hardly a priority on what needs to be fixed with the job, enhancing spells/enfeebling spells/potentially unnerf Saboteur do.

You mean aside from the part where you stand in the back and cast both Light and Dark spells, buffing the party, and enfeeble the mob? Yep, nothing alike at all.

Pretty clear you have no idea what's wrong with Sch and why no one is playing it.

[Rayik]

ITT: Only War can use PDT/MDT gear in addition to having a grand total of one defensive Ja, which nerfs its damage so no one use it.

Wow, way to completely misread what I said. I didn't even mention Defender, because, like you said, it nerfs damage. And I didn't say it was the only job that can equip -PDT gear, I just said that it can. Troll harder, I make much more glaring mistakes than this if you're trying to belittle me.

Except Rdm was never a good melee, it simply had access to strong melee swords and some melee gear - oh wait, that's exactly like FFXI's incarnation of Rdm, damn. It's always had weak melee stats.

And DRK was never good at nuking, so what are you getting at? I'm looking to bolster a facet of the job, DRK nukes were put there to Magic Burst on Weapon Skills. Really, I don't know where you're going with this. DRK's have never been represented as nukers in any facet, RDM's have been shown as swordsmen many times.

Rdm melee capability is hardly a priority on what needs to be fixed with the job, enhancing spells/enfeebling spells/potentially unnerf Saboteur do.

Ok, I agree with you there.

Pretty clear you have no idea what's wrong with Sch and why no one is playing it.

You got me there.

[Karbuncle]

I don't know, I think the problem is that a lot of people who play FFXI have played past FF Games, and rather they admit it or not, all their opinions are 100% biased on how RDM use to play.

They have some glorious nostalgia vision of RDMs in combat hitting things and slinging spells. The problem is, FFXI decided "Fk that noise, enjoy enhancing and enfeebling", They decided to give RDM a speciatly, unfortunately it was not melee.

The problem is we need to accept that, and try to work on ways to improve the job where its strongest.

If they turned around and said "Hey THF, your new weapon is greatsword" would i be like "QQ BUT I WANNA RP DAGGERS", fk no, I'd take my Greatsword, and shove it up the mobs a** faster than you could blink...

Why you might ask? because i don't care about a silly RP of the job so long as what they're giving me helps my job participate better and contribute more to a fight. Sneak Attack Torc? rofl-plow some stuff i say.

But really, this works on both sides, If by some Miracle SE decided "You know what, RDM does need a melee buff", and they started by adjusting RDM's sword skill to A-, adding more powerful Enspells that didn't overwrite Sambas (Where applicable), and gave RDM a slew of Defensive/Buff abilities to compliment RDM melee, Would that not be acceptable?

Because it would still greatly benefit the job without the need for a nerf.

And to the Melee crowd, come to accept RDM is exactly where it was in Past FF Games, a Mediocre melee with access to good weapons, but not a master of them. Luckily for you they are a master at something, unlike past games. SE isn't held to past game but something tells me they're content with RDM melee as it is. But still, you need to ask yourself why you feel so strongly about it?

Would a buff to Enhancing/Enfeebling that greatly boosted your desired-rate in a party slot be that bad? Would you sacrifice utility for Role-playing if you had to chose?