On Red Mage melee...

[cidbahamut]

Yikes, I did misread then. I could understand if it were only while under the effect of a stance, but completely chopping our list in half is pretty cruddy. This game has come too far to see any job get such a massive overhaul, especially a primarily negative one.

And thus we have come to an understanding.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I should avoid wall post of death. Simply there are other hybrids that do many functions with ease, we dont NEED to melee. But if we are to melee as we want to, we NEED to do it better. Sure an empy ws solves some hurt but as many say, we should have something to use until then or have a second option other than doing a empy/mock weapon. The renovations we need to melee come with more opened native ws, access to more daggers, and most of all, more standardized melee-able gear. While some dont want us to melee better, or think we dont, some of us do think we need it, and as nice as it would be to have a special role to fill that needs our brand of melee, we cant expect it and i for one would just like to when able to, be able to slap on the melee gear i do have, and help my dd buddies tear into things. Not because melee is cooler, or more powerful than magic, but because it can be sustained longer without rest compared to magic. In short, more gear, more native ws, maybe a stance or trait to offer a boost to meleeing. Thats what i want most personally. Short, simple, to the point.

[Karbuncle]

This topic moves fast, Anyway, to Rayik i think.

Yes, This is an Role-playing game, The point I was trying to make is that sometimes the Roleplaying the game wants you to do and the Roleplaying you want from the game is not the same. This is the case with RDM in FFXI.

Thats all i was saying

[Rayik]

This topic moves fast, Anyway, to Rayik i think.

Yes, This is an Role-playing game, The point I was trying to make is that sometimes the Roleplaying the game wants you to do and the Roleplaying you want from the game is not the same. This is the case with RDM in FFXI.

Thats all i was saying

Agreed, but the role-playing most of the melee-RDM's want to do stems from an archetype created by the game, and that's where we're running into problems. We didn't just up and decide as a group "Hey! Let's all use swords! Game mechanics be damned!" the inspiration and imagery comes from within the very game that works against it. We're not just whipping out polearms and complaining, we're trying to make better use of what the game gave us in the first place.

And, I'm just a fan of the spell-casting swordsman. It's my favorite fantasy archetype, and the main reason I leveled RDM in the first place. Had I known back then that the game itself doesn't really support that play style, I likely would not have leveled the job. But that's just my experience.

[Seriha]

However, I strongly disagree with the notion that gear should be a prerequisite to do things at an acceptable level.

I'm confused. For all the talk of how if one should want to do X, they need to chase gear for X, you say something like this? One of the biggest arguments has been the overall gap between having and not having such gear, though, and that ties into issues relative to skill ratings, native WS, inventory space (much to your chagrin), actual performance with said gear (which inspires, or doesn't, others to help a RDM get it), and so on. The job's starting point isn't much of one, and we all saw how Doom's party emphasized the current gap, inequality in all party members or not.

I chuckle at the repeated reasoning that the old job description is invalid simply because it's old. This debate is not young by any means. In fact, it's gone on so long that we get people like Tybud skipping any sense of decency and reason because a few years ago someone disagreed with him on Alla, so now he'll just swoop in now and then with all the insults and profanity to "get to the point" like that will mysteriously make him right or suddenly get us willing to listen. Seems similar applies to Drjones, and Eeks never did clarify about his little crush on me when I asked about it. So, I can't help but feel a little bit of selective memory is being exercised when it comes to the age of these arguments.

That said, while the ideas have changed over time with some of the game's overall changes, the core desire really hasn't. Much as I disagree with Due's concept of stances with negatives, I can at least look at him and think he's trying instead of shouting things like "waste" or "impossible" like some are. We know the negatives. You know the negatives. Flex some imagination, play along. How would you make it work? Put those big brains to use, not just the big mouths. At least Karb's tried now and then, but admittedly there are times I question the sincerity given later postings. For all the kvetching about Q&As with bad questions or ideas, why not try to be the good ones? And no, washing your hands of the subject is not an option.

[Greatguardian]

As I mentioned earlier, I would be perfectly content with mutually-exclusive JAs which toggled Acc+15/Attack+15 and MAB+15/MAcc+15. Would it "fix" anything about melee? No, but it would buff it and help it do what it already can do better, while keeping Magical buffs in the loop.

I really don't think it's very possible within the constraints of the game for Rdm to suddenly start melee'ing things that it's unable to melee now without completely changing the job into DNC/BLU. That said, the only real complaint many people would have with a simple melee buff update is that it's essentially doing absolutely nothing for the majority of Red Mages.

I'd like to think that any Rdm who was serious about wanting to melee would have unlocked Death Blossom at the very least. I don't think the job really needs Vorpal Blade as much as it needs more proponents willing to gear it up. Getting a WoE weapon is absolutely not hard for the vast majority of the playerbase. Is it time consuming? Sure. But it's certainly not impossible for anyone, of any playtime and any amount of resources.

Right now, the pervasive idea is simply that "No good Red Mages want to melee", or "No good Red Mages bother melee'ing". This does much more to damage your cause than any WS access or gear access. As far as I know, it's damn near true. What well-geared Red Mages have ever stepped up to the melee plate? Doom is the only one I know of in recent memory. You could very well say that more would step up if melee was buffed, but would they? There is most definitely no shortage of well-geared Red mages. It's an extremely popular job. Are there really people who look at Red Mage melee, think it'd be fun, and then turn around and don't do it because of how weak it is? I couldn't say.

More than any sort of actual buff, most of the people here seem to just want to stop being laughed at by the community at large. Hey, that's fine. But the only way to do that, regardless of what buff or nerf you give melee, is to actually provide examples of RdMelees that are well geared and successful at what they do. Even Doom's set could use improvement. No one's perfect, but it's not like I see many other people (here or elsewhere) trying to step up to the plate with their Red Mages.

[Hyrist]

As I mentioned earlier, I would be perfectly content with mutually-exclusive JAs which toggled Acc+15/Attack+15 and MAB+15/MAcc+15. Would it "fix" anything about melee? No, but it would buff it and help it do what it already can do better, while keeping Magical buffs in the loop.

I'd like to see more than this, for both sides, honestly. RDM already gets ACC+15 on composure, and really isn't suffering all that badly from accuracy problems. I'd trade it for +15 base enspell damage though.

I'd like to think that any Rdm who was serious about wanting to melee would have unlocked Death Blossom at the very least. I don't think the job really needs Vorpal Blade as much as it needs more proponents willing to gear it up. Getting a WoE weapon is absolutely not hard for the vast majority of the playerbase. Is it time consuming? Sure. But it's certainly not impossible for anyone, of any playtime and any amount of resources.

If we're going to talk about Death Blossom as something as a valid requirement for anyone serious about RDM melee (I have it.) Then it needs to start being more impressive than what it is. Perhaps they can do that in the revamp of weaponskills in general to provide more of an impact, even if it's only in helping others. It's great that we have our own version of Ground Strike but it's pretty lacking even compared to Vorpal in some cases.

I am not opposed to the further encouragement of the melee camp wanting going out to get the CDC weapons, either one of them. They should.

Right now, the pervasive idea is simply that "No good Red Mages want to melee", or "No good Red Mages bother melee'ing". This does much more to damage your cause than any WS access or gear access. As far as I know, it's damn near true. What well-geared Red Mages have ever stepped up to the melee plate? Doom is the only one I know of in recent memory. You could very well say that more would step up if melee was buffed, but would they?

If it is given a purpose, yes. Right now, as stated multiple times, people refer to it as hobby level. Which means gear pursuits take a back seat to other pieces/job.

But if RDM has a job they can do their melee that is unique to them, then suddenly the persuit of martial gear stops being just something done for the fun of it. It becomes a part of what they offer to the group at large. Sure, chicken and the egg debate on whether groups would find it useful enough to encourage more to do it. But those who are on the fence or had desired for some more substantial back up from SE to take up this aim now would be given the go-ahead to improve on themselves with more earnest.

Hey, that's fine. But the only way to do that, regardless of what buff or nerf you give melee, is to actually provide examples of RdMelees that are well geared and successful at what they do. Even Doom's set could use improvement. No one's perfect, but it's not like I see many other people (here or elsewhere) trying to step up to the plate with their Red Mages.

This really makes me wish I played more. MMO's do not lend themselves well to a social life, however. I spent most of the past week catching up with friends I wound up neglecting trying to get back into the game earnestly. I just can't seem to balance that time well.

[Seriha]

Again, though, that "No good RDM..." sentiment thrives on an omnipotence of knowing how every single RDM is playing at any given moment across all servers (Not everyone records videos, parses, or feels the slightest bit inclined to post/brag on a forum). One doesn't need to be a master of the job to put the pieces together and realize the shortcomings even if focusing solely on martial skills. That's why I've tried to argue it's a bit of a catch 22 in that the rarity of seeing "good" melees is in part hampered by a mix of the game and their fellow players knowing of those shortcomings, whether or not those opinions are rooted in actual fact/knowledge or just what they heard once somewhere. Players then love to get snippy over mob choice, location, party formation, and then same. Basically anything to try and undermine someone bucking the norm.

Anyway, you'd only need to glance at the census to pick at the numbers for CDC-capable weapons in circulation. From there, we can't really break down which acquisitions are solely for PLDs, BLUs, RDMs, and any mix of the three. I'd argue the hierarchy would follow BLU > PLD > RDM in terms of what people consider "mains" to themselves and how their peers would respond to gearing them for the betterment of their group/linkshell. By default, BLU has the benefit of unique Abyssea procs and better traits to back up melee, and even without Almace, can do some nice things like Whisker burning to help earn their keep. While PLD doesn't particularly shine in Abyssea, pairing them with an Ochain certainly boosts their potential as well as serving as a reasonable preparatory step for the 91-99 push and eventual new-endgame. What is the ultimate benefit for RDM, though? "Melee fodder, magic bosses"? And if all you tend to do is fight "bosses" on the job with others? If such can come off as a wasted effort to me, I don't find it all that unreasonable for others to feel similarly. Delegating a melee RDM to a career of magian trials or old content because of the current state of things just doesn't strike me as a good motivation. Sadly, the FFXI I play tends not thrive on friendship and rainbows for gear acquisition, but instead point systems, priorities, and some unfortunate favoritism.

If the counter-argument to that is to simply get better friends or an LS, that's much easier said than done. The last resort is the PUG game, and... well, we know that can pretty much be like playing the Mog Bonanza in terms of success and failures (Nevermind actually being able to play RDM in the process depending on what presents itself). I am, unfortunately, more inclined to feel we're all greedy on some level and possess a particular distaste for anything that slows personal progress. That ugly facet of ourselves has reared its head many times throughout this thread. When you can curb that, that's when people start to get more accepting. Such is what takes Almace from toy status for us to an upgrade that benefits anyone we play with. Of course, I also feel we shouldn't be solely relying on a single weapon/WS to accomplish that, and in turn attempt to advocate other tweaks that might not mean so much individually, but collectively they complete the package.

[Supersun]

The biggest problem I have with the "just get CDC" argument is that it only looks at the short term.

I'm highly skeptical that weapons at 99 are going to get beaten by an Almace (85). That's just poor design.

I suspect that the Almace trials from now on are going to be a bit tougher then what your average person can obtain.

While WoE is still an option I really don't like the prospect of one sword being glued to my main hand to melee on any decent level.

Believe it or not there are situations sometimes that call for a non CDC weapon. Unfortunately in those situations you have to gimp your damage so much that melee Smns could likely do more then you because our Sword WS / Dagger selection is pretty terrible.

While the, just get an Almace, card works for now I can't see it being realistic at 99. People just aren't going to be willing to help a Rdm upgrade an Almace past (90) as long as it's just a toy.

I'd be very surprised if further magian trials for the Almace keep their current...soloability.

[Seriha]

Yeah, the unknown curve is something we need to be concerned about. Could it be something as "simple" as 50 Hahava kills? I don't know. Bluntly, I'm not looking forward to the promotion of inter-group competition like the current progress of mob drops can inspire. There's nothing fun about killing Bri and Sobek 30+ times for one person, let alone Apa 40+. Is it a "trial" in the pure grind sense? You bet. Is it an actual fun trial? Lemme consult a magic 8-ball on that one.