On Red Mage melee...

[Seriha]

No, what I see is someone willing to flip everyone the bird just because they think they're right. Your excuse? MMO evolution?

I don't play FFXI because of Tolkien. Thus, his concept of elves and orcs mean nothing here. What I do care about, however, is a company maintaining loyalty to their fans and adhering to the foundations of concepts they establish. What you are reaching for is essentially a retcon. Do such things happen in the creative world? Sure. Are they always for the better? Nope. Yes, SE could turn SAM into a main healer tomorrow. It could even be the best healer in the game. That doesn't mean that the move isn't dumb. And again, I'm puzzled when continued implications of SE's developmental incompetence arise, for anything but RDM, they're wrong. Yet, for years, we've had people trying to convey that something isn't right in Vana'diel.

Some of us do realize that player trends and concepts can reach forks where veering from the established might be easier, while at the same time displeasing a small amount of players. However, erecting giant brick walls at these forks to never be broken because they don't interest you or don't think they can work? No. By all means, cling to the manifesto and its egregious disservice of our current description relative to game mechanics. Could SE fix it so we could truly be the buffing and debuffing demi-gods? Sure. But then again, that's an eerily similar blind faith like we had when they said the planned to move RDMs up front. You might be waiting a very long time for them to deliver on a "promise".

[Greatguardian]

Oh geez. Red Mage was taken off swords now? Nah. It just sucks relative to the alternatives. We could just nerf Rdm's magic and have it be a crap job all around, then the relative value of melee to Rdm will have increased. There is no giant brick wall aside from those that the players themselves erect because they don't want to deal with crappy Rdmelees.

All I am is a Red Mage who could give a crap less about swinging a dinky little sword when I can be a veritable ubermage without one. And I don't need people calling for a nerf to Red Mage's magical side in order to "balance" it out (Yes, Duelle does this. I don't care if you don't. It happens here). If/When Red Mage gets an update, I want it to be one that actually plays to its strengths and further develops the abilities and traits that have made Red Mage as powerful as it is today.

If you're not entirely sure how/why Red Mage is a buffing and debuffing Demi-God, I can fill you in. Though I doubt you'll care, considering you think Red Mage's debuffing prowess is "Cheesy".

[Seriha]

There is no giant brick wall aside from those that the players themselves erect because they don't want to deal with crappy Rdmelees.

Which is again where I remind you that this is solely a result of SE's approach to the job. I have no doubt you'd be singing a different tune it wasn't lol.

Though I doubt you'll care, considering you think Red Mage's debuffing prowess is "Cheesy".

Reading selectively were we? I actually have little problem with our current debuff line. The actual issues lie more with mobs themselves or game quirks that allow things that shouldn't be possible.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Artificial difficulty etc.

[cidbahamut]

We could just nerf Rdm's magic and have it be a crap job all around, then the relative value of melee to Rdm will have increased.

And then we'd be closer to the traditional role of Red Mage in other games: Sucking at everything and being entirely useless.

Wouldn't that just be grand?

[Duelle]

Elvaan are stronger than Humes. I demand that all Elvaan be changed to be lanky tree-huggers with powerful magics and absolutely zero physical prowess.

Why? Elves always required being solid in terms of combat (which, *gasp* Elvaan happen to be). Elves live in forests, which is different from being tree-huggers too, btw. If anything, Elvaan being weak in the magic department should be the call to complain (not that it would be much of one). Nice try, though.

I must of missed melee Rdm's high time in lore since the only incarnation I can see that was a decent melee is 1's Red Wizard, and that's the upgrade to Rdm. All of them that were actually listed as Rdm (and not a character with Rdm-like characteristics) also typically had weaker stats as well.

This simply makes me return to my comment on certain FF elements not working in an MMO context. That'd be like claiming Cyan's use of sword skills would work in an MMO if left intact. This is the same thing, as certain parts of the design obviously make the transition less than stellar.

As an aside, I will admit the lore-related pillar to Red Mage happens to be none other than Rainemard, the guy that poked his nose where it didn't belong and got quartered and stuffed in a box for his troubles. Not much to go by, to be honest. That's more fault of the quest designers and the writers.

They can change Samurai into a main healer if they want.

And thus you prove you're not worth listening to. You're worrying about numbers and DPS and stuff in a vacuum rather than looking at a class and recognize the notion of there being something to the name, something to the design and something to style of play.

PS: Creative liberty works best when it is still within the same theme or idea while maintaining the archetype's identity mostly, largely or completely intact. It's the difference between adjusting what is there already to fit the setting and reinventing the wheel. The more history and precedent there is, the harder it is to justify reinventing the wheel. And the more resistance you'll see to the reinventing the wheel, specially when it negatively affects the class/job/archetype in question. And yes, a sword&magic hybrid forced to be buffbot with mezzer thrown in is negatively affecting the class/job/archetype. Easy invites and inflated value do not a good class make.

PPS: Try to listen or read on what I suggest be done before you fly off your handle over me wanting to hurt the iteration of RDM you cling to so dearly. If you don't understand something, feel free to ask.

[cidbahamut]

Reading selectively were we? I actually have little problem with our current debuff line. The actual issues lie more with mobs themselves or game quirks that allow things that shouldn't be possible.

Sounds like you're imposing your play style on others and stuff. You know, like you and your crowd keep accusing of everyone who disagrees with them.

[Duelle]

Sounds like you're imposing your play style on others and stuff. You know, like you and your crowd keep accusing of everyone who disagrees with them.

Because terrain exploits and oversights in mechanics are so legit, right? Just like wall glitching AV was so legit.

To the trolls: Can we stop trying to derail the thread and get back to the OP's main idea?

[cidbahamut]

Fixing bugs and crappy AI is not the same thing as saying "nuh uh, you shouldn't be able to solo stuff because it's supposed to be hard and because I said so."

You also need to stop referring to people as trolls simply because they disagree with you.

[TybudX]

No, what I see is someone willing to flip everyone the bird just because they think they're right. Your excuse? MMO evolution?

What I see is SE flipping you the bird. Hint: it's called a hint. Get one.

Because terrain exploits and oversights in mechanics are so legit, right?

Pinning aside, have you ever actually played RDM? I mean, like I have played RDM? Because a) face tanking shit *cough*fastcast*cough*mdt/pdt*cough* and kite/nuking shit *cough*fastcast*cough* hardly seems like an oversight to me; and b) no combat traits, no good WSs, and access only to typically universal Haste gear *cough*dusk*cough*. Totally an oversight. For 6 years. *cough*