On Red Mage melee...

[Eeek]

SE has stated they will be looking to adjusting debuffs especially on higher level monsters (no sense in having over half of our debuffs on NMs either outright resisted or having little to no effect), I'd like to hear more information on that personally.

Agreed - and I'd also like to see additional (and useful!) enfeebles given to RDM.

[Aurara]

So you don't want to have the other side of the argument so that yours is the only one heard by the devs? I'll pass on letting the only voices that are heard are those of the melee RDM crowd who have most likely never done any sort of endgame(i.e kings, toau kings, wyrms).

[Seriha]

RDM needs a Unique niche to fill, RDM needs a unique aspect, Melee will not be it. So stop forcing it. Enjoy your Melee for what it is, a fun tool for low-level content or messing around.

See, here's where I'm running into a snag. It's okay for RDM's magic to escalate beyond mediocrity, but not for martial aspects? This can't help but remind me of all the hypocrisy floating around whose basis is rooted in efficiency. Were things the other way around, with RDM a good melee and sub-par mage, would you be arguing against magic buffs? I mean, there are other jobs out there that would do them better. Visit the moogle! Don't waste precious dev attention on something that'd be a toy in the end.

There's a reason where, time and again, I've said RDM's current position and community perception is a sort of chicken and egg scenario. What the community has used the job for has been a result of long untouched problems. Support jobs, in general, are in short supply, so some were just able to capitalize on that shortage to ride the gravy train to their goals. We had Cure IV and Haste, same as WHMs, which was often good enough for older content. Like it or not, Refresh and Convert weren't meant solely for backline play, but they wound up helping it. Snowball those facts against old-time EXP habits chasing ITs, where come 50+, you need a few more levels on the mob, that's when RDM's martial inefficiencies started to add up (Lesser skills, lacking WS, fewer gear options). It's a giant, "No-freaking-duh!" that what eventually rose from that was a WHM-wannabe since it's almost our nature as players to try and find ways to make something work just so a job isn't wasted. Just look to all the other loljob enthusiasts. Even our curative game could be different if healing skill played a greater role in potential, much like how ACC/ATK does for melee. It's this same "grace" by SE that had SMNs scraping by in the past dishing out Cure IIIs simply because they had an MP pool.

All this happened in a time where Abyssea didn't exist, let alone level syncs, colibri, or even CoP. You could spend hours, even days LFG. The levels were long, the EXP trickled in slow. You basically did what you had to if you want to crawl toward 75. And while those days are long behind us, they did their damage in shaping conceptions that have no doubt manifested here in some fashion. It is known that SE's initial incarnation of RDM had issues that they later tweaked. This came before our NA PC launch, so very few of us will actually have first-hand experience. Some are sitting here saying SE pretty much got it right and to call it a day. Others disagree. We know they have a history of job and balance blunders, but somehow RDM is immune to those. Some say the needed attention can't be done, that it would be overpowered. Again, disagreement. Enter consideration of faith to the concept. At what point does a Red Mage stop being a Red Mage based on its evolution in the MMO field? Some fear this reality, others opt to remain ignorant for utility's sake.

In the end, I believe that what SE proposed in the vision can be achieved with a martial twist. I know it's unpopular to some, and those some will gleefully parade around behind my back rationalizing my position that I enjoy being an underdog, am seeking e-fame, or whatever issue-clouding jargon they'll spin in personal attacks to hope I, and others like me, would back down. Yet, here we are, still being "idiots" you feel entitled to "educate" while wielding the patience of a toddler. Perhaps it is your goal to simply get this thread locked, to try and brush the argument under the rug like others who've come before. It'll never go away, though, not until SE does what they need to. And if that thought makes your blood boil a little, just take a breath and relax. Believe it or not, a RDM swinging a sword in a party will not destroy FFXI.

[Karbuncle]

Presenting points that have already been argued against and debunked earlier in this thread do not make you any more correct that previously. Presenting things in an arrogant manner as if the melee camp were a bunch of ignorant peasants is both insulting and trolling. Now stop it and get out of our thread.

Its not debunked, You just found a good enough answer to convince yourself and moved on.

In past Final Fantasy's, RDM was a Mediocre DD, It was a mage that had the capability to wield swords, something other mages did not have, It was not an expert in them either.

In FFXI, they are the same. They are Capable mages with the ability to wield combative weaponry adequately.

You can justify your want for melee prowess however you see fit, But in other peoples eyes, and apparently SE's, They done the RDM justice to their previous titles, a good mage with the Ability to wield a sword.

You can continue asking for as many boosts as you want, You have the right to want improvements to your job, I'm just pointing out you've debunked nothing, You've provided an answer good enough for yourself and other RDM melee enthusiasts.

Again, Suggest to your hearts content, But as far as i can tell, not a single useful piece of information or a single suggestion has come of this thread since the first 20 pages, at this point its just mindless bickering.

[Duelle]

Its not debunked, You just found a good enough answer to convince yourself and moved on.

In past Final Fantasy's, RDM was a Mediocre DD, It was a mage that had the capability to wield swords, something other mages did not have, It was not an expert in them either.

Nor was RDM a master of magic. Hence the sword&magic hybrid.

If you want to go into specifics, RDM was a generalist, and as such mediocre at everything. That didn't fly and will never fly in the MMO context because generalists tend to suffer horrible fates in being excluded from meaningful content or relegated to a function that was both menial and ridiculously far away from what the players wanted out of the class when they rolled it. Since the generalist approach doesn't translate well into MMOs, pieces of the hybrid have to be adjusted to make it work.

Again, Suggest to your hearts content, But as far as i can tell, not a single useful piece of information or a single suggestion has come of this thread since the first 20 pages, at this point its just mindless bickering.

We're not the ones instigating the bickering. If you want to help get this thread back on course, join us in asking the trolls to leave our thread alone and bother someone else. We could then get back to discussing ideas.

Also, what Seriha said, a thousand times over.

[Karbuncle]

Nor was RDM a master of magic. Hence the sword&magic hybrid.

They are that in FFXI. But more powerful in magic than melee. Your(well maybe not yours, but someone) answer is possibly nerfing Magic to make their melee more appealing (I vaguely recall "Make it to RDM can only buff themselves")

RDM is good with a sword, however you're prowess ends when the mob reaches HNM status, Which is where your magic is suppose to take over. You have your Melee for weaker mobs, and your magic for tough mobs. any RDM should know this, and it makes perfect sense, They aren't called "Red Melee", they're called "Red Mage".

If you want to go into specifics, RDM was a generalist, and as such mediocre at everything. That didn't fly and will never fly in the MMO context because generalists tend to suffer horrible fates in being excluded from meaningful content or relegated to a function that was both menial and ridiculously far away from what the players wanted out of the class when they rolled it. Since the generalist approach doesn't translate well into MMOs, pieces of the hybrid have to be adjusted to make it work.

THey did this, By giving RDM its unique niche, Enhancing and Enfeebling better than other jobs. What needs to be done is to power up its enhancing and Enfeebling Capabilities. Swords don't need to be left in the dust (RDM still has access to a lot of Melee gear and Almace/Excalibur), But at the same time i redirect you to my above statement, as a Hybrid job they are adept at melee, and Excellent at Magic. Knowing which situation calls for which is the Hallmark of a good RDM.

You're free to ask for Melee capabilities, just so long as they don't nerf Magic capabilities, Because you wouldn't be helping RDM, you'd be condemning it and everyone who plays it as a mage.

We're not the ones instigating the bickering. If you want to help get this thread back on course, join us in asking the trolls to leave our thread alone and bother someone else. We could then get back to discussing ideas.

Frankly, You're arguing and instigating back, and in some cases, with a far harsher and irritated tone. We're adults "THEY STARTED IT" isn't working. You're just as guilty for continuing it.

Also, what Seriha said, a thousand times over.

Kay. Again i say though, Maybe seri mentioned it in this post, but I haven't seen a single good suggestion come out of this thread in dozens of pages.

What would make RDM melee good? What boosts would be worthwhile?

[Supersun]

Kay. Again i say though, Maybe seri mentioned it in this post, but I haven't seen a single good suggestion come out of this thread in dozens of pages.

What would make RDM melee good? What boosts would be worthwhile?

I try not to make a habit of making too specific of suggestions because frankly they don't do a whole lot of good. SE is smart (sorta). They can easily make their own solutions.

I'm not saying that trying to make solutions is bad, but what's important is not the idea itself, but the problem it reflects.

I tend to come from the line of thought that something shouldn't be added for the sake of nothing. Something should be added in trying to address a problem.

There are 2 types of ideas you will see on these forums.

The "Oh it would be cool if Samurai was invincible while WSing and had a move that auto stunned TP attacks"
and...
Ideas created to rectify current problems within the game.

That's a large reason my "suggestions" are rather lengthy. It's because if I was a developer what's important is not the suggestion itself, but the reason behind the suggestion. What is the suggestion trying to fix. It's why I tend to go a bit into why I'm proposing a suggestion.

I also tend to believe that the best solutions are the simplest ones. While Duelle may believe that a job revamp is in order I can't realistically see that happening. I mean the extreme would be them renaming Red Mage to Green Mage and then actually creating Red Mage correctly.

I know I've written about the ironies of Rdm melee and had a few simple solutions to help fix a lot of the issues that it currently faces that were frankly stupid to even add in the first place. That and any melee buff most people feel should come in the form of utility over raw damage.

-----

Also Karbuncle has been pretty understanding out of all the people linked here from the BG thread lol.

(didn't you make that post in another thread? Search posts that you have made by clicking your name)

[Duelle]

RDM is good with a sword, however you're prowess ends when the mob reaches HNM status, Which is where your magic is suppose to take over. You have your Melee for weaker mobs, and your magic for tough mobs. any RDM should know this, and it makes perfect sense, They aren't called "Red Melee", they're called "Red Mage".

You're falling back on the joke that is the "mage" argument. I find it difficult to take you seriously when you start off with that.

THey did this, By giving RDM its unique niche, Enhancing and Enfeebling better than other jobs. What needs to be done is to power up its enhancing and Enfeebling Capabilities.

AKA taking the job in an entirely different direction from what is dictated by its archetype (really, the sword&magic character forced into mezzer/buffbot). Making magic and melee both viable options for the hybrid in question would have prevented the mess that broke out between both camps from happening in the first place. Could have called the job something other than Red Mage (Green Mage or Oracle actually fits what we currently have better) and gotten similar results.

Swords don't need to be left in the dust (RDM still has access to a lot of Melee gear and Almace/Excalibur), But at the same time i redirect you to my above statement, as a Hybrid job they are adept at melee, and Excellent at Magic.

That's not a hybrid job. That's a caster with an incomplete idea attached for novelty. Very different things.

You're free to ask for Melee capabilities, just so long as they don't nerf Magic capabilities, Because you wouldn't be helping RDM

You seem to join Guardian in thinking I'd nerf RDM on the baseline, whereas I'd create a melee facet (hence the stances) and build off that without fear of melee proficiency breaking the job because the limiting mechanic that makes modern hybrids tick would actually be there, along with safeguards to prevent said melee facet from being misused or undermined by other players. Instead of crossing your arms at me before even hearing what I have to say, how about you ask me to elaborate?

you'd be condemning it and everyone who plays it as a mage.

If you actually believe this, it only tells me that deep down you do realize the job in its current incarnation is poorly-designed.

Frankly, You're arguing and instigating back, and in some cases, with a far harsher and irritated tone. We're adults "THEY STARTED IT" isn't working. You're just as guilty for continuing it.

I can admit to this. Do, however, keep in mind the melee camp is on the receiving end of the insults. In my case, also keep in mind I've been in these kind of arguments before. Different game, different class, but same archetype and same naysayer BS.

If you actually want to make melee'ing viable on a Mage class, you are going to have to find a way to melee while keeping up the same casting load as a backline Red Mage.

This creates redundancy, so that would not fly. From a design perspective, cycles don't have a place in front line play.

Frankly, there is no amount of melee DPS that is going to make up for the casting loss. Ever. If I needed a DD, I'd get a DD. If I wanted someone with basic backup magical ability to swing swords at a monster all day, I'd invite a Blue Mage. Red Mage is a caster. The idea, if you insist on forcing the topic, is to melee while still doing that casting. Not to replace it

My prior experiences on this matter beg to differ. DPS boosts, utility that makes it nice to have the hybrid stand in the front hitting things, some inconveniences to healing or safeguards to prevent the hybrid from being forced into buff-botting of heal-botting if front-lining, mezzing/debuffs tied in to front-line play and maybe even some nukes, too. Note the caveat: When front-lining.

If you want to look at it another way, when you play in the back line you get to use the aspects of your class to make the back line role work. When you front line, you use the aspects of your class to make the front line role work. The current model doesn't let that happen due to lacking mechanics and the fact that staying away from the mob (not just in the case of RDM, but most classes in this game) is the "easier" and "safer" alternative.

I know Duelle seems to refer to anything non-melee as "Cure botting" or "Refresh/Haste spamming like a robot".

You do realize that our perceived "value" when talking about group dynamics largely hinges on heals, Refresh and Haste, right? Enfeebling plays second fiddle to the big three. Flexibility matters little in party content, in no small part due to the old "good parties don't run into things where your utility and flexibility would help, so shut up and refresh me" argument. If you're trying to bring RDM soloing again, I'll remind you that soloing means nothing in a game built around partying.

You guys also seem to have missed something I did make clear earlier in this thread: I don't mind having a melee RDM abide by the rules other melee follow in combat. If the SAM, DRG, WAR and MNK are being told to not hit a mob due to some encounter mechanic, I'm not going to expect to be melee'ing either. That'd make no sense.

[Rayik]

EDIT: On second thought, not worth necro'ing.

[Supersun]

The difference was that swords were actually GOOD in those games and that 99% of what you could do as a melee entirely depended on what weapons you could equip.

In those games a sword stomped weapons like daggers and clubs pretty hard for the most part and endgame swords were pretty much the best weapons in the game.

Sure there were a few melee "Job Traits" like dual wield and two hand, but it was easy enough passing those to Rdm since every job was able to use 1-2 special abilities from other classes in FFV at least.

Outside of those your performance pretty much depended on your weapon and Rdm usually had access to some of the strongest swords.

In XI up until the level cap increase swords actually had a similar issue. Swords as a weapon had to be held back quite a bit because swords had and still do have some of the most overpowered weapons this game has ever seen aka the Joyeuse and the Ridill.

Those weapons were pretty much what made sword good before the level cap increase. They were pretty much the reason Sword's strongest WS was restricted to Vorpal Blade because anything stronger would have pretty much guaranteed swords dominance from the joyeuse and the ridill (pre-2 hand update).

The issue is now...every weapon can get their own joyeuse now while swords WSs are still as crappy as ever. I mean out of all the primary WSs that a DD job is expected to use as their primary DD WS Vorpal Blade is probably the second worst WS in the game only trailing behind Blade Jin, but ninjas have dual wield up their *** to compensate.

One part of Rdms current DD woes is that swords are just TERRIBLE. Daggers and Clubs which in other final fantasies would get stomped by swords are stomping sword in return. Yes, Almace helps some, but it would be VERY bad game design if at 99 everyone is STILL using an Almace(85) given that they've proven...easier to get then expected.