On Red Mage melee...

[Eeek]

Coming into a RDM melee thread, starting to tell us we're doing it wrong, that we have no right to want or ask for melee updates, inferring success in outside the game from one's inability to bend over to a community misconception that the developers have yet done nothing about, and accusing us of wanting to waste developer time is not trolling?

No, it's not trolling. The posters who disagree with pointless melee buffs, and embrace RDM's oustanding magical capabilities, are people who have well-geared RDMs and who enjoy playing RDM. In any case, we'd be well within our right to post here even if we didn't have RDM leveled. It's not 2002 - smart players don't need to level every job to gain a deep understanding of gameplay mechanics.

Furthermore, you're vastly overstating your melee complains as a 'community misconception'. No, it's an Alla RDM Forum misconception. Everyone else in the overall community, forum posters or not, recognize that RDM enjoyed its status an exceptionally powerful mage over the years - so powerful that even SE hesitated to tweak it much as the level cap rose past 75 (and even nerfed Saboteur). And as much as you and the melee crowd may hate it, SE's vision for RDM as revealed in the Manifesto is, in general, the correct path for RDM.

Meleeing on RDM as a hobby (or against weak content) is perfectly fine - meleeing as the focus for RDM is not fine. If SE focused solely on RDM's melee 'talents', it would bring about decimation on par with the Big RNG Nerf.

[Stylin]

No, it's not trolling. The posters who disagree with pointless melee buffs, and embrace RDM's oustanding magical capabilities, are people who have well-geared RDMs and who enjoy playing RDM. In any case, we'd be well within our right to post here even if we didn't have RDM leveled. It's not 2002 - smart players don't need to level every job to gain a deep understanding of gameplay mechanics.

That's the single most ignorant thing I've ever heard. I bet you think you can fly a jet just because you saw True Lies.

Newsflash: Instigating and arrogance is trolling. Surely someone as smart as you think you are would realize that much.

I'd like to hear how you can rationalize that a melee buff means we'd get some kind of catastrophic nerf. If our magical side is as powerful as you claim it is one would think that buffing that any further would cause a nerf.

[TybudX]

No, what I see is someone willing to flip everyone the bird just because they think they're right. Your excuse? MMO evolution?

What I see is SE flipping you the bird. Hint: it's called a hint. Get one.

Because terrain exploits and oversights in mechanics are so legit, right?

Pinning aside, have you ever actually played RDM? I mean, like I have played RDM? Because a) face tanking shit *cough*fastcast*cough*mdt/pdt*cough* and kite/nuking shit *cough*fastcast*cough* hardly seems like an oversight to me; and b) no combat traits, no good WSs, and access only to typically universal Haste gear *cough*dusk*cough*. Totally an oversight. For 6 years. *cough*

[Crimson_Slasher]

See now this is what has become of this thread at this point.

Pro-melee croud: "Let us use the swords you keep giving us!"

Counter-melee croud: "Shut up, we like being mages"

Overall standpoint stands at we want more melee prowess, but as a whole, none of us want it to be FORCED to hinder our mage side, yet those who dont see melee as having any use still come in as if we are saying death to the mage side. Now let me stop the train for a second. Why is it bad for red mage to be able to melee? So what if some players start doing it at inopertune times? Just like DDs having to learn to stay off select mobs at select times, we would do the same, but then we could place our mage gear on and offer support that way. Now back to what has been said of others about this concept. "Go ahead an melee, but id pick a sam/drg/drk/war/mnk/thf/dnc over you ever time", Well go ahead, if there are any of those jobs seeking then take em, if not, then you have two options, take a rdm whom is able to do physical/magical damage, or have dead party spaces. And while we are at it, if you feel that way, then youd better invite a full white mage, black mage, and bard, afterall, why not get the best? But if none are seaking, or if your party has three or more white mages and black mages, then that red mage who cant refresh them all at once anyway is just sitting there, slap some gear on em and put em to work.

Now onto the statement that many of us are too polite to say. WE ARE ALL PLAYING AND PAYING FOR A GAME WE ENJOY. You do not pay my or likely any of the people who oppose your view point's fees. You are entitled to your opinion as are we, but we clearly have no interest in humoring your counter melee thoughts in a melee oriented thread. If you want to say why we dont need to melee, make a thread, or collectively stuff it so we that ARE interested in melee fixes can discuss the ideas we have amonst one another. You are the drunken frat-boys stepping into an A.A. Meeting saying "Theres nothing wrong, we dont need to change anything, there is no problem!" and while you are free to think that, others do see a big problem, enough to gather together and talk about it. Stop creating a toxic environment and politely excuse yourselves to go and talk about how meleeing shouldnt be buffed for rdm, and how mage improvements would be great, do so elsewhere please, it is hindering our discussion.

And for you being too lazy to read that, In short. We dont want you disrupting our pro-melee discussion with your anti-melee sentiments, GET OUT.

[Duelle]

In short, we dont want you disrupting our pro-melee discussion with your anti-melee sentiments, GET OUT.

Seconded.

Everyone else in the overall community, forum posters or not, recognize that RDM enjoyed its status an exceptionally powerful mage over the years - so powerful that even SE hesitated to tweak it much as the level cap rose past 75 (and even nerfed Saboteur).

Refusing to nerf oversights does not a powerful class make. Inflated value through refresh does not a powerful class make. We've already gone over this, yet you don't seem to get it.

I wonder if all the "PRo-RDM Melee" People know that FFXI RDM is the exact potency of Melee as all other FF RDMs?

That being, terrible,

You mean the games where a melee model involved basically hitting Attack whenever your turn came up? And somehow that didn't make a good transition into the MMO context? Color me surprised (/sarcasm). I've also gone over this, but let me state it again: certain concepts and parts of design do not translate well in MMO terms. In the case of RDM, you have a sword&magic hybrid whose melee model in past FFs was basically...hitting Attack when their turn came up. In those cases you have to give the melee aspect some depth. Hence this thread.

Presenting points that have already been argued against and debunked earlier in this thread do not make you any more correct that previously. Presenting things in an arrogant manner as if the melee camp were a bunch of ignorant peasants is both insulting and trolling. Now stop it and get out of our thread.

[Karbuncle]

I wonder if all the "PRo-RDM Melee" People know that FFXI RDM is the exact potency of Melee as all other FF RDMs?

That being, terrible,

You guys do know in every other Final fantasy game, the job Red Mage was a Mediocre Melee and a Mediocre Mage combo right? In FFXI you're a Mediocre Melee and a Excellent mage, In my eyes that seems like an improvement.

So stop using the "What it was in other FF Games" excuse. Because RDM in every single past game was a Mediocre "Meh Worthy" DD, just like it is in FF. If you're going to argue, don't argue that, because while you may or may not blindly ignore it, other people see it.

Edit: And I've always enjoyed a good RDM melee, but i know its not well endgame. Guess what? FFXI doesn't need another Melee DD, we have a million Melee DD, Don't condemn RDM to mediocrity by forcing it to be another DD that will never be on par with SAM or WAR. because then you get THF

RDM needs a Unique niche to fill, RDM needs a unique aspect, Melee will not be it. So stop forcing it. Enjoy your Melee for what it is, a fun tool for low-level content or messing around.

[Hyrist]

Meleeing on RDM as a hobby (or against weak content) is perfectly fine - meleeing as the focus for RDM is not fine. If SE focused solely on RDM's melee 'talents', it would bring about decimation on par with the Big RNG Nerf.

Nobody's arguing for this extreme. Rather, we're arguing that the majority of the game's content is curently under that 'weak' catagory, yet Red Mage has no tools that are sufficent to taking the front lines to the benefit of the party that are not outdated or improperly scaled.

Weaker end notorious monsters should not be a no-no for RDM melee. Put bluntly, our buffing game just isn't good enough for that, and our debuffing game is kinda meh as it stands now too due to nothing to regard TP moves and little to actually enhance our damage output aside from Dia III.

It's why I call for a tie in. (I'd love to Radiate a Crit-hit rate/damage up Debuff/Buff Aura or have something equivilant on an enspell.) As when it comes to rapid re-application of debuffs, it's usually not worth it. And psudo healer should not be the default fallback (especially when you're plentiful on healing jobs).

[Eeek]

Nobody's arguing for this extreme. Rather, we're arguing that the majority of the game's content is curently under that 'weak' catagory, yet Red Mage has no tools that are sufficent to taking the front lines to the benefit of the party that are not outdated or improperly scaled.

I disagree with you because Doombringer proved otherwise. Sure, his damage output paled in comparison to Gokku's excellent MNK, but Doom's melee RDM absolutely thrashed the damage output of the pickup BLU and WAR. RDM certainly does have the tools available for respectable melee damage - it's just that not all RDMs are willing (or capable) to dedicate the effort required to gear a melee DD well.

MNK and WAR are not excellent DDs merely because they're a MNK or WAR.

It's why I call for a tie in. (I'd love to Radiate a Crit-hit rate/damage up Debuff/Buff Aura or have something equivilant on an enspell.) As when it comes to rapid re-application of debuffs, it's usually not worth it. And psudo healer should not be the default fallback (especially when you're plentiful on healing jobs).

I dunno, Hyrist. I main-heal on RDM perfectly fine for a lot of Abyssea content. Why should my friends and I stand around in Port Jeuno waiting for a LS WHM to log on when we can instead go out on our NIN, WAR (THF for the NMs), and RDM and go build some Empyrean Weapons or complete some AF3+2 pieces? Not all of those Abyssea NMs are zomgHARD without a WHM, and for some of the more evil Abyssea NMs, I appreciate a WHM and RDM on the back line.

A bored, idle RDM is a RDM that's doin' it wrong - no matter the approach to a particular fight. And including a RDM in a party/alliance that's already too heavy on healing jobs is simply a poor choice for the party/alliance setup (unless, for example, it's a RDM/SCH focused on crowd control, nuking, and mage support).

By the way, the Aura buffs concept reminds me of a Quick Magic Job Trait - it sounds good in theory but would fail in practice. For tougher content, I absolutely will not park my RDM in close with the tanks and melees. Not even BRDs spend more time than necessary up with the tanks and melees. RDMs would only be able to provide Aura buffs on the simplest of fights, and on the tougher content, would only sap the backline's resources for questionable gains (that may not even be offset by all the damage/debuffs inflicted on the RDM). Besides, the concept of Aura buffs is a blatant clone of BRD songs.

[Sira]

RDM certainly does have the tools available for respectable melee damage - it's just that not all RDMs are willing (or capable) to dedicate the effort required to gear a melee DD well.

this a million times, i cant count how many times i've watched joytoy rdm melee something as someone comes along and nearly one shots it with a ws, while the rdm standing there crying about how SE doesn't love rdm melee. if you seriously want to melee on a job like that, you really need to treat it that way, not a mage that can just equip a sword in their typical mage gear and say he can be a good DD. hell i've seen club melee sch or whm dish out some great numbers in and out of abyssea. on that same note, rdm can never be expected to put out the same damage a war or mnk can, in all of FF history it has never been that way and that will never change. That said i know that not all of you are looking for rdm to be the best melee DD, just something that can handle certain mobs in the "end game" without having to kite it the entire time, these people make me question if they are truly trying to melee, or just slapping a joytoy on like i mentioned earlier.

[Neisan_Quetz]

SE has stated they will be looking to adjusting debuffs especially on higher level monsters (no sense in having over half of our debuffs on NMs either outright resisted or having little to no effect), I'd like to hear more information on that personally.