On Red Mage melee...

[Rayik]

Those descriptions haven't been updated in nearly a decade, you really think those count for anything? Heck, if we're going by that then Warrior is some sort of defensive class that specializes in preventing damage to other party members. Guess what? It isn't, just like SpankWustler isn't a master swordsman.

Ya know, it's funny, because last I checked, WAR can tank just fine. They have no problems holding hate, can wear the heaviest armors and have a nice range of -PDT gear as well. Hmm.. Notice none of those other classes on that list changed either? Oh yeah, except RDM, which turned into a completely different job.

Actually it's exactly like that, except that DRKs seem to know what they're good at and get angry when SE tries to give them magic updates because it doesn't actually do anything for the job.

Right, because every iteration of DRK(including Zeid in FFXI) was known for their nuking ability... Swing and a miss. Level DRK and get back to me.

Because it is in danger? I think someone else already covered it, but time spent developing melee nonsense is development time that should have been spent making worthwhile adjustments to the job.

Oh noes, but according to you guys, RDM is already an uber-powerful mage, and many of the anti-melee crowd has been chanting over and over that nothing is wrong or needs fixed, so which is it?

If you honestly think playing Scholar is the same as playing SpankWustler, then you probably haven't done a whole lot with SpankWustler. The two play very differently and do not offer the same utility at all.

You mean aside from the part where you stand in the back and cast both Light and Dark spells, buffing the party, and enfeeble the mob? Yep, nothing alike at all.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Ya know, it's funny, because last I checked, WAR can tank just fine. They have no problems holding hate, can wear the heaviest armors and have a nice range of -PDT gear as well. Hmm.. Notice none of those other classes on that list changed either? Oh yeah, except RDM, which turned into a completely different job.

ITT: Only War can use PDT/MDT gear in addition to having a grand total of one defensive Ja, which nerfs its damage so no one use it.

Right, because every iteration of DRK(including Zeid in FFXI) was known for their nuking ability... Swing and a miss. Level DRK and get back to me.

Except Rdm was never a good melee, it simply had access to strong melee swords and some melee gear - oh wait, that's exactly like FFXI's incarnation of Rdm, damn. It's always had weak melee stats.

Oh noes, but according to you guys, RDM is already an uber-powerful mage, and many of the anti-melee crowd has been chanting over and over that nothing is wrong or needs fixed, so which is it?

Rdm melee capability is hardly a priority on what needs to be fixed with the job, enhancing spells/enfeebling spells/potentially unnerf Saboteur do.

You mean aside from the part where you stand in the back and cast both Light and Dark spells, buffing the party, and enfeeble the mob? Yep, nothing alike at all.

Pretty clear you have no idea what's wrong with Sch and why no one is playing it.

[Seriha]

And in the real world you sell milk as milk, not apple juice.

[Greatguardian]

Funny, I was under the impression that there was some sort of Administration that handled the distribution of Food and Drugs that ensured that consumers were not suffering from legitimate physical and medical consequences by ingesting products that were not what they described.

I bet that totally applies to concepts in an intellectual property distributed over a video game medium.

Oh right.

It doesn't.

Elvaan are stronger than Humes. I demand that all Elvaan be changed to be lanky tree-huggers with powerful magics and absolutely zero physical prowess. Why? Because creative license is a travesty. Anything that differs from Dungeons and Dragons, Tolkein, and FF1 character archetypes must be wrong.

[Seriha]

Funny, I was under the impression that there was some sort of Administration that handled the distribution of Food and Drugs that ensured that consumers were not suffering from legitimate physical and medical consequences by ingesting products that were not what they described.

SE's our FDA. I present our box. Its contents? Seemingly lacking some kind of fighter aspect. By your logic, though, we should be embracing this revolutionary apple juice-flavored milk because if that's how it is, gee golly, we should like it.

[Duelle]

Elvaan are stronger than Humes. I demand that all Elvaan be changed to be lanky tree-huggers with powerful magics and absolutely zero physical prowess.

Why? Elves always required being solid in terms of combat (which, *gasp* Elvaan happen to be). Elves live in forests, which is different from being tree-huggers too, btw. If anything, Elvaan being weak in the magic department should be the call to complain (not that it would be much of one). Nice try, though.

I must of missed melee Rdm's high time in lore since the only incarnation I can see that was a decent melee is 1's Red Wizard, and that's the upgrade to Rdm. All of them that were actually listed as Rdm (and not a character with Rdm-like characteristics) also typically had weaker stats as well.

This simply makes me return to my comment on certain FF elements not working in an MMO context. That'd be like claiming Cyan's use of sword skills would work in an MMO if left intact. This is the same thing, as certain parts of the design obviously make the transition less than stellar.

As an aside, I will admit the lore-related pillar to Red Mage happens to be none other than Rainemard, the guy that poked his nose where it didn't belong and got quartered and stuffed in a box for his troubles. Not much to go by, to be honest. That's more fault of the quest designers and the writers.

They can change Samurai into a main healer if they want.

And thus you prove you're not worth listening to. You're worrying about numbers and DPS and stuff in a vacuum rather than looking at a class and recognize the notion of there being something to the name, something to the design and something to style of play.

PS: Creative liberty works best when it is still within the same theme or idea while maintaining the archetype's identity mostly, largely or completely intact. It's the difference between adjusting what is there already to fit the setting and reinventing the wheel. The more history and precedent there is, the harder it is to justify reinventing the wheel. And the more resistance you'll see to the reinventing the wheel, specially when it negatively affects the class/job/archetype in question. And yes, a sword&magic hybrid forced to be buffbot with mezzer thrown in is negatively affecting the class/job/archetype. Easy invites and inflated value do not a good class make.

PPS: Try to listen or read on what I suggest be done before you fly off your handle over me wanting to hurt the iteration of RDM you cling to so dearly. If you don't understand something, feel free to ask.

[Rayik]

Funny, I was under the impression that there was some sort of Administration that handled the distribution of Food and Drugs that ensured that consumers were not suffering from legitimate physical and medical consequences by ingesting products that were not what they described.

I bet that totally applies to concepts in an intellectual property distributed over a video game medium.

Oh right.

It doesn't.

Elvaan are stronger than Humes. I demand that all Elvaan be changed to be lanky tree-huggers with powerful magics and absolutely zero physical prowess. Why? Because creative license is a travesty. Anything that differs from Dungeons and Dragons, Tolkein, and FF1 character archetypes must be wrong.

Not sure what edition you're referring to, but even in D&D elves are just as strong as human, they just take a hit to their Constitution. Besides, "Elvaan" are not "Elves", but "Red Mages" are still "Red Mages".

[Neisan_Quetz]

I must of missed melee Rdm's high time in lore since the only incarnation I can see that was a decent melee is 1's Red Wizard, and that's the upgrade to Rdm. All of them that were actually listed as Rdm (and not a character with Rdm-like characteristics) also typically had weaker stats as well.

[Greatguardian]

Holy crap, guys. The 9 year old game has changed and grown dynamically over time, allowing certain trends to become obsolete while others surface as the context of the game changes?

Blown. My. Mind.

Edit: There also is no FDA for creative license. Fiction can be whatever the hell the writer wants it to be, broski. That was the point. Your analogy is terrible because Zombie Tolkein writing a book where Orks are bright purple and pink and represent the epitome of law and order is well within his rights.

[Seriha]

Point missed. Again.