On Red Mage melee...

[Crimson_Slasher]

As it stands, very few people feel its viable to melee on rdm. The issue is how to do it, and how to make it better. As it stands while there are mechanics for and against it, mostly against it for the red mage croud, there ARE ways to improve it. Now lets take apart someone's post to make a point! Because you all know, thats what forums are for, bashing eachother. Anyway on to the facts. Lets look to great guardian's post about what rdm is good at.

Most durable job in the game he exclaims. Well lets see what we have to say about that.
>>Ninja has a spell (Migawari) that quite literally prevents fatal attacks from killing the user? Rdm got that? No? stopping utsusemi ignoring fatal moves sounds pretty Durale to me!
>>Blu has Magic barrier and cocoon, strongly adding to their defenses too, now, while i havent personally tried out magic barrier, i and many of us know cocoon can sharply cut damage with PDT gear (which a lot of they have access to) and if magic barrier is infact stronger than shell and phalanx in tandem, and they can (and they can) gear MDT effectively, they have more durability there.
>>Pld has a MASSIVE selection of PDT and MDT gear, Phalanx, high defense, and job abilities to boost those defenses, which they can also pick a subjob like rdm, blu or nin to enhance their defenses, even war has great options to do so.

Now while none of those spell mosr durable job, it doesnt seem so exclusive, and i didnt even poke the evasion/counter/utsusemi masters. Last i checked, rdms are not up tanking, being cured as they solo abyssea nms. Not only because it is not time efficient, but it requires more effort to be durable than those 3 other jobs. Onto the next point.

Able to heal itself and others at a passable level? Lets see what we have here.
>>Pld. Oh welcome back to the table! cure IV apparently makes you healer worthy, so gear up MP and refresh gear and get to it.
>>Dnc, hey friend, wait whats that? you cure BETTER than us? Less frequently, but ill call it passable. Oh whats that? You have fan dance and want to be added to the durability list? well...you do have the evasion, and pdt gear. Well next time...
>>Blu, You're here with too?! did you and pld come down together? Oh you're better at curing than rdm too? Well thanks for the help with that point.
>>Brd/whm, Oh hello! Been a while since ive seen you, you rascal you! You know, some forget you can sub whm and get cure IV, or wear a lot of the same gear we can. Oh i know you can stack a lot of mp, and refresh yourself, well welcome to the party.
>>Smn/whm, Oh thats right! you did get cure IV /whm too now didnt you? And whats more, you can use all our cure potency gear and the facio bliaut! Well there will always be a spot here for you!
>>Sch, im just going to leave you here, you have as much cure power as we do, more if you pop off a rapture here or there with that handy 45 sec stratagem charge.

Okay enough of passable healers. lets see what else he had to say.

Dealing direct magical damage at passable levels! This will be fun! Lets make this one quick then.
>>Sch, got a few tier V nukes, good enough.
>>Smn, those merit BP can land some decent numbers, not as often but that wasnt adressed
>>Blu, hmmm we need to debate you but you get a lot of mage gear, high skill, and some potent spells like charged whisker.
>>Pup, Ah yes, high evasion high melee prowess, and your little pet can do some serious nuking damage (or cure if need be)

Possesive of some of the strongest direct enfeebles in the game?
>>Blu, here again? Stalking me! Well they arent just direct, they do some damage... but i guess they have enfeebs.
>>Dnc, not strongest, but theyre decent.
>>Sch/rdm, borrowing our strengths, as can whm, or blm in some instances.
>>Nin, yep, they got em.

Active defensive buffs.
>>WHM and sch, baring the phalanx and haste, but aside from recasts, i dont see how haste is defensive.
>>Pld and blu, again, spells that do it, or having the same as above, less so for pld.

Fast cast.
>>Sub rdm and gear it up, lots of gear and jobs have access to the trait via gear, including blu.

What is the point of me breaking this down? Nothing, just like you breaking it down. This is not a game of have and have not. Just cause one job has it, doesnt mean another cant or doesnt. A good number of those jobs have many of the things we have, and still have melee prowesses and that is a fact. And while we may not NEED melee, there is little reason to not have the access to it, because lets face it, there will always be some time, or way, or person to point out that endlessly tanking a magic defensive mob is futile if we cant kill it. And to ALL of you saying "Hybrid jobs are never as good as specialists," i want you to look me in the eye and tell me how ninja got through your watchful eyes. It is a hybrid, it nukes some, it enfeebles, it tanks, it dds. Funny, its not the best at it all, but it enfeebles well, tanks great and dds great. Seems like hybrids CAN be done right doesnt it? Anyway end of wall post.

Summary: Our flexability is not entirely exclusive, and ninja is a hybrid that does it better/right.

[Neisan_Quetz]

*Blu doesn't benefit from Enhances Stoneskin gear, buffing stoneskin to a max of ~450 hp absorbed before Phalanx is factored
* Rdm isn't being used as a tank as like pld it's pointless (and after the updates, fairly difficult to accumulate enmity), at 75 on anything you couldn't melee Rdm was the best tank for it, the moment it was something you could straight tank any other tank was better than Rdm.
*Waltz timer says hi
*Pld gets 20% cure potency at best using gimp main/offhands, Rdm beats that in one slot.
*Blu is better at Aoe nukes but most of the rest (and even CW itself) have long recast and/or pathetic range.

[Swords]

Frankly, there's nothing wrong with wanting more out of our job even if it's not nor ever will be considered viable. Hell most jobs have already gained something to really call their own and set them apart post 60+, RDM... got a JA that they should have gotten at Lv15 over 6 years ago and a half-assed JA that you would likely only gain full benefit from solo. If you compare all that RDM has and all that other jobs have, most of our important JA's and spells equate to subjob material. RDM really lacks any native exclusiveness aside from Refresh II, and most of us know the last thing we really need is another half dozen spells to add to our already stressed casting load (unless AoE buffs are involved which would help relieve some of it.)

We all have differing opinions on how we think RDM should grow, now that RDM has been given a chance to actually get something. Most of the melee crowd I think, would prefer to have something that would allow them the option to actually do something decent (if not significant) if the opportunity arises to actually melee, and actually push the good RDM's out there to invest time into a decent gear-set for such an occasion. It might also flounder another age of wannabe melee RDM's, but anyone with half a brain knows like forum trolls, Regis Philman, and Jay Leno they weren't going to disappear to begin with.

The backline supporters, tend to want more enhancements for their backline job. While I'm for this, I am a bit skeptical as well. As I stated above, we have an enormous casting load and any good RDM who's playing a significant backline role (and I'm using that term loosely) will likely be casting nonstop. More spells would likely equate to an even heavier casting load, unless any new buffs are AoE or higher tier of what we already have.

And really it doesn't begin to touch basis on gear and that three ring circus of gear swapping and inventory issues we go through on a daily basis. Most melee classes just have a TP and WS setup, most mage classes really only need a Nuke/Cure and heal MP/Refresh setup to be good at their jobs. A good RDM on the other hand, at the minimum has Debuff, Cure, Buff, Nuke setups.

In either case I'm not going to hold my breath on what SE does, they're quite notorious for saying they're going to do something then do the opposite. As it stands, RDM is not going to advance any further until SE breaks the fourth wall and does something significant.

Frankly I don't see why they're so hesitant on giving RDM something powerful, if anything they can always scale it back like they did with SAM, RNG, or the 2h update. What are they afraid of, another Avesta appearing? More HNM solo exploits? It's already bad enough we've had to work twice as hard to be half as good as any specialist, I think we all just want something to call our own that makes our efforts stand out and shine in a party setting that does not equate to just spamming buffs and cures between enfeebles.

NOTE: I generalized my post, so I was not using any specific situation or context when writing it.

[Crimson_Slasher]

GASP! You mean those job have...FLAWS? Really. I never knew. My turn then?

-Blu doesnt benefit from enhanced stoneskin, big deal, half the time blu these days is subbing rdm when they dont sub nin, meaning they STILL can utilize the gear.
-Nobody said it wasnt pointless to try to tank or useful to take a hit, but the point still stands that rdm has no hate tools, and its durabilites, while great, are a moot point when you are backlining 99% of the time. Like i said, rdm being able to take a beating means nothing because even as it stands, you do NOT see much (if any) rdm + anything doing NMs where the rdm is performing the tank duties, because as durable as they are, it takes more effort to maintain it than other jobs which does NOT allow them to inflict any damage. Once again, tanking a mob endlessly and being unable to kill it is not hard, any thf, dnc, or nin has practice with back tanking while waiting for proc. So when you see a rdm tanking damage and nuking effectively, or even meleeing effectively, then you can make the point that it actually matters. And while at it, if you are wearing that gear and not doing anything, unless you are in a battlefield, if you have enough time to realize the X ability is coming, and can get to the macro, in a lot of cases you could have simply stepped out of range.
-Waltz timers are an issue, sure, but being able to throw a bigger cure means you need to do it less often. Sure they cant main heal a party inside or outside abyssea, but they can do quite a bit, and you cant discredit that. Also theres more waltz potency gear that is easier to come by than cure potency that rdm can use.
-If pld is functioning in the capacity of healer, for what ever reason that may be, why does their "gimp main/offhand" equipment matter? it gets the job done so if the pld is willing to perform that role, the gear shouldnt matter.
-Range or the fact that a nuke is AOE does not diminish its ability to deal magical damage, it may have to get closer, but it can still effectively do magical damage, besides, blu may be better at AOE nukes, but atleast it has the option to do AOE nukes.

Also. PLD cure potency: Templar mace (10%) Hospitalizer Earing (5%) Roundel earing (5%) Dagda's Shield (5%)
-Net total (25%) (33% if champion Gaela and blitzer polyon are augmented with cure potency)
RDM cure potency: Surya's staff+2 (22%) Flygla's torque (3%) Roundel earing (5%) Aug'ed sidestory gear (8%) auger's gloves (4%) Max known aug'ed zenith boots. (4%)
-Net total 46% (without the augmented gear at best you can get 35%, just 2% off pld with auged gear.)

It still comes down to our flexability not being exclusive

[Neisan_Quetz]

So we can agree all jobs have drawbacks and Rdm isn't exclusive on this, okay.

Thanks for proving my point on Pld cure potency too.

If Nm aoes are an issue then yes the range of the spell is an issue, especially if the monster moves for whatever reason.

There's a grand total of 2 jobs with AoE magical Nukes unless I'm missing something, not seeing how this is somehow a problem.

[cidbahamut]

And really it doesn't begin to touch basis on gear and that three ring circus of gear swapping and inventory issues we go through on a daily basis. Most melee classes just have a TP and WS setup, most mage classes really only need a Nuke/Cure and heal MP/Refresh setup to be good at their jobs. A good RDM on the other hand, at the minimum has Debuff, Cure, Buff, Nuke setups.

You forgot idle, PDT and MDT sets. For backline work your inventory is very close to 80, if not exceeding that and requiring you to keep certain pieces in the mog sack as the situation dictates (ie, store your MDT set when fighting mobs that have no magical damage). I can't imagine adding full TP and WS sets to that.

Frankly I don't see why they're so hesitant on giving RDM something powerful, if anything they can always scale it back like they did with SAM, RNG, or the 2h update. What are they afraid of, another Avesta appearing? More HNM solo exploits? It's already bad enough we've had to work twice as hard to be half as good as any specialist, I think we all just want something to call our own that makes our efforts stand out and shine in a party setting that does not equate to just spamming buffs and cures between enfeebles.

Why don't we ask some Rangers how that "scaling back" worked out for them?

[Neisan_Quetz]

2H update adjustment was done pretty well I think, can't say the same for the others.

[Gokku]

2H update adjustment was done pretty well I think, can't say the same for the others.

do you have any idea what they broke in the 1st 2h update? it would have ruined rdm and every other 1 handed and hth dd for the rest of the game.

[Supersun]

You mean they didn't anyway even after they fixed it?

Because I thought 1H DDs were a joke until Razed Ruin.

[Swords]

Aye it pretty much butchered 1h wielders, I even recall some MNK's saying they were doing more damage with a staff before they scaled the 2h update back. I don't think 1h were too bad off after the fix till the damage gap between one and two handed weapons started to grow further apart.