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  1. #1071
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    That would probably work (just filtering bats). I just don't want to go through the trouble of running a parse only to have someone come up later and freak out about the testing conditions (oh noes teh demons). It would be a waste of time. I mean, I'm sure someone would always find something to freak out about as far as conditions are concerned. Regardless, now all I need is a Cerberus RDM willing to set up a time/date. I can talk some friends into providing all the support we need, I'm sure.
    (2)

  2. #1072
    Player Supersun's Avatar
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    Well you could certainly show the data for the beetles, bats, and both combined. I mean piercing IS a pretty sizable advantage over slashing for the mobs with a piercing weakness and sometimes you still end up fighting a piercing weak monster. I mean, more data is certainly better then less.

    (Demons are a pretty anti-rdm mob though. It's almost as bad as if Rdms got to choose the monster and picked elementals. A portion of your damage is just automatically cut. Not going to say that it's going to vary THAT much even on a better target, but once again, more data is always better the less data.)
    (0)

  3. #1073
    Player Eeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatguardian View Post
    That would probably work (just filtering bats). I just don't want to go through the trouble of running a parse only to have someone come up later and freak out about the testing conditions (oh noes teh demons). It would be a waste of time. I mean, I'm sure someone would always find something to freak out about as far as conditions are concerned. Regardless, now all I need is a Cerberus RDM willing to set up a time/date. I can talk some friends into providing all the support we need, I'm sure.
    Sadly, this won't happen even in the best of circumstances, I'm afraid. Doom is the only melee RDM on these forums with the courage to step up and perform as well as he can (hint: that's why he gained a lot of respect), and pretty much everyone else willingly blinds themselves to facts and reality. Or relentlessly backpedals when faced with reality.

    To everyone: Demons are essentially an anti-Everyone mob.
    (3)
    Last edited by Eeek; 07-27-2011 at 10:22 PM.

    -- Fan of Abyssea and FFXI's New Direction --
    -- THF - DNC - BLM - RDM --

  4. #1074
    Player Swords's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supersun View Post
    There are certainly enough beetles to never run out since they spawn on a 5 min timer now, but good luck dodging the bats and only pulling beetles. I still don't think you are going to find a better spot even if it involves the occasional bat since every other spot I can think of is even worse with their piercing weaknesses or use stupid TP attacks. Worse comes to worse you can just exclude all the bat data (pretty sure you can do this can't you?).
    If your talking about the new bats and beetles in garliage citidel's basement they're non-agressive, so they shouldnt be a problem. You do need to watch out for the new bombs though they're agressive and don't seem to use any tp moves besides self-destruct.
    (0)

  5. #1075
    Player Rayik's Avatar
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    Character
    Rayik
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    Cerberus
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    RDM Lv 95
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatguardian View Post
    My point was simply that I have not, in either population, seen hardly anyone who claims that RDM melee is viable in its current state aside from Doom stand up and actually present himself to parse. Personally I'd be willing to parse against anyone on Cerberus as a non-RDM in a similar situation, if there was a melee Rdm there who wanted to go.

    I have a lot more sympathy for people who know that Rdm melee is borderline useless on a relative scale (as in, anyone can beat up some crappy gimps, but comparing good player to good player, etc), and simply want it to be better. I simply don't see the point, personally, as I have no vested interest in the "concept" of magical swordsman.
    I play on a console, so I wouldn't be able to do a parse unless someone on PC did it for me. I'm stating plainly(as I have before) my gear is a work in progress, and at the moment pretty gimp. I'm working on improving it, but when it comes down to it, it's much more difficult to get help for things that are only seen as by the public as "lol" or just something to play on the side. I've got 5 other jobs to gear for, and my resources are limited. When I have a respectable gear set, I'd be happy to do a parse with someone, if just for data to add to the discussion. If someone wants to try and put my RDM against a DD just to outdamage me and make me look stupid, no thank you. RDM's lack of DD capability is an issue, hence the multitude of threads on all the FF forums. If RDM melee was awesome as-is, this discussion wouldn't even be taking place.

    I'm currently working on boosting up my haste and getting better swords. Atheling Mantle and Calmecac Trousers make a noticeable difference, though. I'm getting there, just not at a point to really compete yet. I've got nothing to hide, I'm just openly stating my set up is gimp at the moment. A parse would be worthless.

    When I feel confident in my setup, I'll gladly join a parse.
    (0)

  6. #1076
    Player Supersun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeek View Post
    Sadly, this won't happen even in the best of circumstances, I'm afraid. Doom is the only melee RDM on these forums with the courage to step up and perform as well as he can (hint: that's why he gained a lot of respect), and pretty much everyone else willingly blinds themselves to facts and reality. Or relentlessly backpedals when faced with reality.

    To everyone: Demons are essentially an anti-Everyone mob.
    My gear isn't quite up to par yet for a lvl 90 fight, but I've already offered to do a lvl 75 synched fight to see whether that 80% number was accurate or not. My gear isn't super perfect, but it's solid, well the TP set is at least.

    I "think" I still have most of my Eviceration pieces. Though I never would of though I would of had to use that WS again.
    (0)

  7. #1077
    Player Duelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatguardian View Post
    The point is simply that there still seem to be posters who feel that RDM melee, in its current and past incarnations, is not completely useless and overly weak.
    Whether RDM melee is currently useless and weak was never in question. As I've said before, the mechanics aren't in place to allow for meaningful front-line performance. This isn't proving anything new or discovering something none of us knew before.
    Even Doom's parse assumed that he did almost zero casting at all. Increasing the casting burden in order to actually play RDM as a hybrid class and not purely as a DD will only lower their effectiveness even further.
    This is obvious as well.
    Doom is the only melee RDM on these forums with the courage to step up and perform as well as he can (hint: that's why he gained a lot of respect), and pretty much everyone else willingly blinds themselves to facts and reality. Or relentlessly backpedals when faced with reality.
    Seeing that the purpose of this thread is the inadequacies of Red Mage melee, I'd say we've been spot on with the discussion up until the e-peen waving started. All that parse did is "reveal" something that anyone with an ounce of appreciation for class mechanics already knew when looking at RDM.
    (0)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line.

  8. #1078
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    I know my gear's not perfect either. I never expect anyone's to be. My personal philosophy is that perfection is unattainable, but those who strive for perfection will eventually achieve excellence. I'm pretty similarly geared to Gokku, for reference:



    I should be able to emulate an average-ish 75-cap SAM too, since my SAM honestly hasn't been used much since then (and was never any good to begin with). Though I think I tossed my Tomoe. Meh. I don't think I'd be able to offer a serious contest on another DD job, if we wanted a non-Mnk parse. Mnk is where my focus has been, as far as my DDs go. My Nin and Sam are pretty terrible, and my COR is decently nice but definitely not a serious DD job.

    Edit: Oh good lord, Duelle. Do not even start trying to claim that no one in this thread has claimed that Red Mage melee is and has been viable in the current state of FFXI. Just don't. If you know it sucks hardcore and just want to do more of it? Cool, whatever, I'd rather not waste an update on it but hey that's your preference. But don't sit here and tell me that no one in this thread has tried to prove in some manner that Red Mage melee is not completely and utterly worthless right now.
    (3)
    Last edited by Greatguardian; 07-28-2011 at 09:18 AM.

  9. #1079
    Player Duelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatguardian View Post
    Do not even start trying to claim that no one in this thread has claimed that Red Mage melee is and has been viable in the current state of FFXI. Just don't. If you know it sucks hardcore and just want to do more of it? Cool, whatever, I'd rather not waste an update on it but hey that's your preference. But don't sit here and tell me that no one in this thread has tried to prove in some manner that Red Mage melee is not completely and utterly worthless right now.
    If you mean the derail over the mythical "80%", I'll grant you that. Aside from that and the random trolling, we've been kicking around ideas and sentiments that it needs improvements. You're free to disagree with us, but you don't leave a class with under-performing facets if you want to design and sell it as a hybrid. You also don't piss on an archetype, and instead should make the game mechanics for it work.

    That being said, what do you propose we do if not ask for improvements? Put up and shut up? We've done that for far too long.
    (0)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line.

  10. #1080
    Player Greatguardian's Avatar
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    As if the "Mythical 80%" derail was the only example, but yes it was one of the more recent ones.

    Frankly, hybrid jobs in FFXI suck complete ass solely because they are hybrids. How awesome is that there Summoner job? Bottom of the barrel must feel pretty nice for them. What about that thar Blue Mage? I must've forgotten the part where people actually give a crap about that job outside of Abyssea. Oh, no, I didn't. It just sucks. General rule of thumb, no one needs one Hybrid when two Specialists will always be exponentially better.

    Red Mage is an extremely powerful job because its magical aspects are powerful enough to be considered specialist-tier in their own right. If your nukes suck on Red Mage, something is wrong. If your enfeebles won't stick on things that aren't immune, something is wrong. If you can't stand there and take 0-100 damage from King Behemoth's Meteor, something is wrong. Red Mage is an extremely adept magical job outside of Abyssea, and is very near vital for any sort of difficult content.

    However, while Red Mage's potential is extremely high, it requires an almost-constant casting/action load in order to keep it up. Pretty much the only time I'm not doing something on Red Mage is when I'm 30 seconds from my vert timer and riding my last 50~ MP. If you want to melee at a point which offers a utility that is anywhere near comparable to what Red Mage can offer as a backline specialist, you'll basically have to become the most brokenly overpowered job in the entire game.

    Edit: Which Red Mage basically was, for years, and still may be considered as such outside of Abyssea.
    (3)
    Last edited by Greatguardian; 07-28-2011 at 10:46 AM.

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