On Red Mage melee...

[Rearden]

Guys, the JP's figured it out years ago.

[Rearden]

I also liked the part about "CDC numbers looked low".

Something to note: GL hitting a constant 3k~anything outside of Abyssea. It's called FFXI, and they are mutually exclusive.

[Gokku]

i love how an all pug group is a set up, i mean if i had my ls there with brd whm wildfire cor ukon war vere monk and a masa sam that would have totally been a fair show. its not like he didn't destroy 2 abyssea level players or anything.

[Seriha]

Back during oldschool Dynamis, I managed to weasel in in a melee capacity at 75. Even eating pizza, I can't say I was at all happy with my performance and can only imagine that getting worse with the demons increasing in level with little about RDM itself changing. Any idea how often people were blinded? What were the particular job families being fought? Never fought the VT ones there since I've been done with Xarc AF, but dunno if Condemnation and its stun are a factor, too.

Overall, I know part of this "experience" was to debunk the old 80% value, but I also think it was made under the assertion people were more equal. PUG or not, BLU spells outside of Abyssea are gonna drop hard on VT or greater (Demon or not) given a lack of Blue Attack options in gear, songs, or food. No idea what his actual skill rating was at for determining damage values, either. Just comparing to MNK, them having enmity gives a distinct advantage to most other jobs when it comes to counters. Not gonna say it's not fair, but it doesn't help anyone not MNK, a Retal WAR, or someone riding Seigan/TE. Just one of those moments that kinda emphasizes RDM's lack of native melee traits jumping out there to bite 'em in the butt. Regardless, it's a nod toward the job's martial prowess needing some help, particularly without CDC involved.

[Gokku]

people have got to realize outside of abyssea your dmg will drop dramatically. i was blinded about 80-90% of the time so going to assume the same for others. also this wasn't planned out in advanced he was the only one in the thread who mentioned being willing to parse and i saw him online. mob list is a follows

as you can see the majority of mobs we fought were low evasion low def mage mobs no plds or thfs etc. The counter argument is the same as a GOOD war with retaliation, and fuck condemnation i spent damn near 1/2 of every fight stunned from it. demons were just as much of a hindrance to the rdm as it was to me being able to fight without being stun'd.

[saevel]

ALL Kindred are high defense / VIT mobs with natural MDT. And I was referring to the old Mystery Tour monster database, they had been able to determine the monsters template and figure out it's def / evasion / AGI / VIT / INT. Monsters of the same template scaled the same way. Its no longer online now and I wonder what happened to all of it's data.

The whole point of that is that a Kindred monster at level 90 will have higher defense / VIT then a Goblin, Dhamel, Pugil, or Bird at level 90. The only monsters that I can remember with higher DEF / VIT were crabs and Urganites. The "job" stats are applied after the template, so a Kindred WHM would most likely have more defense then a Goblin WAR of the same level. Colibri for example where template bird, job RDM with access to all White / Black magic and songs flagged and possessing a natural -12.5 MDT. So yes that particular target was worse case scenario, as had you been fighting Level 95 tree's, goblins, Orcs, Yags or Pugils then the attack penalty would of been less.

And BTW I never once mentioned Abyssea, you are the ones who brought that up as a red herring. His average on CDC was 600, that is very low for that kind of WS. At 75 in Xarc vs Kindreds I was able to get 400~600 (depending on buffs and food) with Death Blossom, and this is without using Dia III. He should of been hitting 800 at least, but due to his ratio being under 1.0 it got severely whacked.

But yes I picked up early that this was just an attempt by certain BG elements to deride RDM's as "mage onry" and provide an attempt to say "RDM can't even do half the damage of a real DD" and "an AH gimp melee is still better then a RDM". It was a setup pure and simple. They weren't even in there to actually accomplish anything, not coins collection, not NM pops, not AF acquisition and not XP. The whole purpose was to "prove RDM wrong". The proof was in the simple statement that the parse was stopped when someone died, of all the melee capable jobs RDM has the highest survivability and the game doesn't stop if a melee gets themselves killed. That's disregarding one of RDM's biggest strengths, it's sheer survivability. Avoiding death is part of a playing a job and part of being a DD.

Looking over your accuracy data, the blind effect did absolute jack sh!t to your accuracy. The RDM, who most likely had the lowest accuracy of the group, is eating attack food and not Pizza and still hitting 90%.

But please don't let me stop your celebration, after all it's not like no one else has attempted this technique before to "win the RDM war".

[Neisan_Quetz]

ALL Kindred are high defense / VIT mobs with natural MDT. And I was referring to the old Mystery Tour monster database, they had been able to determine the monsters template and figure out it's def / evasion / AGI / VIT / INT. Monsters of the same template scaled the same way. Its no longer online now and I wonder what happened to all of it's data.

The whole point of that is that a Kindred monster at level 90 will have higher defense / VIT then a Goblin, Dhamel, Pugil, or Bird at level 90. The only monsters that I can remember with higher DEF / VIT were crabs and Urganites. The "job" stats are applied after the template, so a Kindred WHM would most likely have more defense then a Goblin WAR of the same level. Colibri for example where template bird, job RDM with access to all White / Black magic and songs flagged and possessing a natural -12.5 MDT. So yes that particular target was worse case scenario, as had you been fighting Level 95 tree's, goblins, Orcs, Yags or Pugils then the attack penalty would of been less.

So you basically state my question was correct.

And BTW I never once mentioned Abyssea, you are the ones who brought that up as a red herring. His average on CDC was 600, that is very low for that kind of WS. At 75 in Xarc vs Kindreds I was able to get 400~600 (depending on buffs and food) with Death Blossom, and this is without using Dia III. He should of been hitting 800 at least, but due to his ratio being under 1.0 it got severely whacked.

Goes back to point 1.

But yes I picked up early that this was just an attempt by certain BG elements to deride RDM's as "mage onry" and provide an attempt to say "RDM can't even do half the damage of a real DD" and "an AH gimp melee is still better then a RDM". It was a setup pure and simple. They weren't even in there to actually accomplish anything, not coins collection, not NM pops, not AF acquisition and not XP. The whole purpose was to "prove RDM wrong". The proof was in the simple statement that the parse was stopped when someone died, of all the melee capable jobs RDM has the highest survivability and the game doesn't stop if a melee gets themselves killed. That's disregarding one of RDM's biggest strengths, it's sheer survivability. Avoiding death is part of a playing a job and part of being a DD.

This has nothing to do with Rdm being a good melee because it isn't.

But please don't let me stop your celebration, after all it's not like no one else has attempted this technique before to "win the RDM war".

ITT: Parsing someone's performance in a given situation is 'winning' the "war".

What's even funnier is your claims of "BG elements" trying to deride Rdm melee when Byrth simply noted this was expected given the other 2 DDs and Radec even defended Doom's performance.

[Gokku]

But yes I picked up early that this was just an attempt by certain BG elements to deride RDM's as "mage onry" and provide an attempt to say "RDM can't even do half the damage of a real DD"

Looking over your accuracy data, the blind effect did absolute jack sh!t to your accuracy. The RDM, who most likely had the lowest accuracy of the group, is eating attack food and not Pizza and still hitting 90%.

1. i A. have almost as many posts here as i do on bg B. it was to show that a rdm couldnt do 80% of the damage of a GOOD dd, and it ended up showing that a red mage can completely destroy your avg player i dont swap gears player.

2. the red mages accuracy is a huge point , thats his accuracy with madrigal on 99% of the time we got attack song one time. so his acc would drop a decent chunk without it if we had had dual haste instead were as my accuracy while blinded with str food wouldn't have dropped much at all.

[Greatguardian]

Even I was impressed with Doom's performance, but here's the thing. I hear a lot more about RDM Melee on forums than I do in-game. This is not surprising, because there is a significantly larger potential population to draw from on forums. With that said, one can only assume that there are at least a couple well-geared RDMelees around on forums when so many people seem to be into it.

Yet I rarely see people actually talk about their personal RDMelee set, or come out to see how it stands up against another melee without backpedaling and giving excuses. Doom impressed me not only by having a pretty nice set, but also by stepping the frap up and parsing with someone.

I have no doubt that there are countless more available high-tier DDs to parse with on any server if another RDM thinks this parse was fouled and wants to do their own on something else. Really, my only condition for accepting the parse (which I'm sure is mirrored by many others here) is that we can make sure that the competing DD knows what the heck they're doing. It's fairly obvious, in my mind, that any SAM that is only capable of doing 125% the damage of a RDM on Colibri at 75 is doinitwrong. Edit: And the fact that the original claim cited the SAM using a Hagun on birds pretty much speaks to them being completely inept.

[Seriha]

Even limiting banter to your own server, you're only privy to things you can immediately see in say, tells, shouts, party, and linkshell chat. Not to pull a Boondocks here, but the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. You just plain don't know or have access to what everyone is saying, in English, German, French, Japanese, Italian, or whatever. The simple longevity and accessibility of forum posts, by default, allows more people to get involved. However, even if FFXI is sitting at 200k users, I don't exactly see so many frickin' names that indicates every one of them is here, on Alla, BG, or wherever. Probably not even close to 75k if you wanted to guess that the English-speaking population we'd be familiar with.

Overall, even when it comes to those you don't see chatting about it, they're not approaching it from the mindset of hoping to beat anyone and everyone. They're interested in personal improvements, sure, and I've nudged people toward certain gear choices as I've chanced upon random talk in PUGs, but I've never fed nor promoted the delusion that they should be beating XYZ job. Not really sure if you're expecting War and Peace when someone does bring it up, though, as it basically boils down to "Wear this, this, and this" with a side of how to get whatever or maybe finer details on a given NM.

It happens, though, and I know Duelle has at least had some peeks at the JP side of things to see they've had similar gripes as us.