Fostering Skillful Play

[Caketime]

The interface is skill based... what?

I often find navigating the UI to be more of a challenge than most bosses, especially after 9 beers.

[Umichi]

He's saying people aren't game smart anymore... at least that's how i see it. ask any new person who came in after abyssea started up and was on it's third expansion where are the 3-4 popular leveling spots people used to go to for leveling around 20-40 and within those zones where the camps are, or what skillchain is produced from using a weapon skill combo like lightning thrust and burning blade, then ask em what spells could be cast to produce a magic burst. or things like where are the places to farm items for money, or heres where you can buy x item from an npc, also things like how everyone is just sent to gusgen, garilige citadel and then abyssea they level so fast they have barely any interaction with their community or people who play their job in the community.

Things like helping newbies is also something i think he means when he says fostering skill i used to remember seeing 10-20 mentors on at any given time now there is barely 5-6.


Also remember he says social alot in his speech so don't just assume it's job fixes and adjusments >_>

[Mirage]

He's saying people aren't game smart anymore... at least that's how i see it. ask any new person who came in after abyssea started up and was on it's third expansion where are the 3-4 popular leveling spots people used to go to for leveling around 20-40 and within those zones where the camps are, or what skillchain is produced from using a weapon skill combo like lightning thrust and burning blade, then ask em what spells could be cast to produce a magic burst. or things like where are the places to farm items for money, or heres where you can buy x item from an npc, also things like how everyone is just sent to gusgen, garilige citadel and then abyssea they level so fast they have barely any interaction with their community or people who play their job in the community.

Things like helping newbies is also something i think he means when he says fostering skill i used to remember seeing 10-20 mentors on at any given time now there is barely 5-6.


Also remember he says social alot in his speech so don't just assume it's job fixes and adjusments >_>

The reason people aren't using all the gameplay mechanics is because the events are designed in such a way that these gameplay mechanics are not important, not because "players are dumb".

Players adjust. If the content doesn't require smarts to complete, they don't bother learning everything there is to learn. If the content does require the players to be smart, the players will learn how to use the other game mechanics as well, regardless of if they got their job to 99 in an abyssea leech alliance or not.

I don't think Akihiko is saying "players are dumb" at all. I think he's recognizing that the current battle mechanics and NM designs just do not create an environment where skillful play can be fostered.

[SpankWustler]

I don't think Akihiko is saying "players are dumb" at all. I think he's recognizing that the current battle mechanics and NM designs just do not create an environment where skillful play can be fostered.

I hope this is the case. I'd be really happy to get some screws and a screwdriver instead of the nails and hammer format everything has gradually moved towards. Plowing through content best cleared by extremely buffed melee and some form of Stun by using extremely buffed melee and some form of Stun gets old after a while.

I think the main concern is that this statement actually does mean something and will be pursued half-way. So, we'll be forced to drive nails with the handles of screwdrivers or forcibly hammer in screws.

[Toadie-Odie]

I think the main concern is that this statement actually does mean something and will be pursued half-way. So, we'll be forced to drive nails with the handles of screwdrivers or forcibly hammer in screws.

I share the same concern here.

In addition to that, I'm the kind of gamer that likes to tinker around with stuff and experiment. Nothing was ever more frustrating that to hear "why are you subbing that job?" even back in the old days. When I play solo you might see me doing all kinds of weird things just.. well because, but stick me in a party and I'm just a cookie cutter whatever like everyone else.

I would like to see that change. I would like to see more wiggle room for experimentation in ALL aspects of the game. Not just in main/sub choice, but in party build choices, and gear set choices.

New gear shouldn't always make previous gear obsolete. I wouldn't mind seeing new gear that was different but equivelant to what already exists. Heck I would even be happy with new gear that was just reskinned versions of old gear.

I would like to see Evoliths with more "oomph" to their buffs if you will and a wider variety. I liked the idea of making and customizing gear that fits your play style but was disappointed in the options the Evoliths provided. I was further disappointed in seeing that this system was more or less pushed aside.

When the Trial of the Magians came out I was disappointed to see that once you reach certain branch points of a path, you're stuck on them. I would like to see a series of trials added that were not linked in fixed paths, but rather having a max number of trials for a weapon and being allowed to choose the trial that you want. Such as making a weapon/armor with a minor PDT- buff with a MND+ and AGI+ boost (or any other combination) for example. Maybe even include trials that gave a minor boost in some job abilities. This will allow us to think, plan, and consider the path of the weapon/armor and the trials taken on for it. Gear like this would reflect the play style of the player. Learning how to build and use it would foster skillful play.

[saevel]

He's talking about creating battles that actually involved strategy and mechanics. Anyone who's played other MMO's knows that battles should have a variety of things happening requiring team work and precision application of strategy's. Not super buffing a handful of DD's and throwing them at a monster while keeping them alive (somehow).

The reason we've been using the "throw more DD's at it" is that is the only current strategy that works. Battles have a time limit, but don't be fooled the fight we be over LONG before that time limit expires. The NM's can devastate an entire alliance so fast that your only option is to hit it with max DPS in the hope of overpowering it's AI (I'll go into this in a minute). The longer the NM is alive and engaged the longer it's AI has to run through it's various methods of killing you and the higher your chance of a failure are. Many of these fights are non-recoverable due to the NM regaining it's HP (that seriously needs to stop for BC or other restricted entry fights), once people start dieing it quickly turns into a cluster f*ck and a wipe. With alliance wide hate and super powerful moves of death, recovery is a very slim option.

Now onto the monsters AI, monsters decisions to use TP moves depends on two things. First being it's current TP, over 25% HP (30~50% on some NMs) it will only use it when it's @300, under 25% HP it'll use it @100TP. Second is an actual script timer, the AI won't use a move within a certain time of already using one. Zering gives an NM so much TP that it hits 300 within seconds but due to it's timer it won't use TP moves as fast as it accumulates TP. This has the effect of reducing total TP spam vs damage dealt (get one move per 400~600TP fed to the NM rather then one per 300).

To get out of all this BS SE needs several changes.

Foremost is fixing enmity such that a tank can actually tank during a max DPS rush. Don't kid yourself if it's not possible for a tank to hold hate when a DD is going nuts, then we'll be falling back to the zerg strategy. The longer a monster is alive the higher your chance of death, thus it's in your best interests to kill it ASAP. This is why fixing enmity such that damage output doesn't create insane amounts is important, tanks by definition can not create as much damage as a melee and restricting your "hate" to the max damage of a PLD is a fail strategy.

Second is fixing the super AoE wipe everyone moves, AoE's need to be severely restricted. SE has gotten entirely too comfortable with making everything aoe. Circular AoE ensures that no matter if your tanking or not, everyone gets hit with the sh!tty move. Why even bring a *tank* if everyone's going to be hit with the move anyway, just bring another DPS, your healing the same amount (Curaga spam). Monster attacks should be devastating but only devastating to the target (assuming fixed enmity) with a small cone effect to anyone standing next to them. Or they could use a small 5 ~ 7 foot circular range on the *target* not the NM. These things force people to consider positioning. Finally, no more AoE super dispelling moves or sudden hate reset moves. AoE dispelling spam just moves fights towards PD / Embrava zergs as buffs are critical to keeping people alive and functioning. Single target multi-dispel is fine, or even a small conal / target-circle one, but massive 20 foot super dispells just screw with people without adding any strategy at all. Sudden Hate reset moves just make tanking impossible and your back to DD spammage (can't reset hate on all the DDs).

[Yinnyth]

...

Foremost is fixing enmity such that a tank can actually tank during a max DPS rush. Don't kid yourself if it's not possible for a tank to hold hate when a DD is going nuts, then we'll be falling back to the zerg strategy.

...

Second is fixing the super AoE wipe everyone moves, AoE's need to be severely restricted. SE has gotten entirely too comfortable with making everything aoe.

I agree to some degree with everything you've raised in your post. I do take 2 exceptions though:

Tanking: It is my opinion that tanks should not be able to hold hate off DDs who are going balls to the wall with their damage. If a tank can hold hate off all the DDs while they're doing a primevil brew zerg, then the only portion of the strategy of battles becomes "keep the tank alive" because no one else will be getting damaged, so you just ignore them and let them do their thing. Tanks need to be able to hold hate a lot better than they currently do cetainly, but it should only be enough to hold hate off an average DD going at 75% power.

DDs going at full power needs to be a calculated risk. Enmity gear needs to mean something. Enmity reducing abilities need to mean something. If tanks are always 100% effective, we lose all of these aspects from gameplay.

AoE: AoEs provide the battle with other strategic aspects which should not be removed. Some AoEs are complete BS (Hi, ADL's 4x-instant-use dynamic implosion which has 30' range, does 300-500 damage each, and inflicts terror for over 30 seconds), and those should be changed. But AoEs should not be removed from the game completely.

We need high-power AoEs with a long wind-up so tactical stunning or running for your life is required. We need low-powered AoEs so healing more than just 1 person is sometimes needed. We need short ranged AoEs so people who pay attention can outrange them. We need long-range AoEs which don't hit anything within 5' of the enemy itself so even the healers get put at minor risk. We need conal AoEs so you have to be careful where you stand.

We need a variety of AoEs to force us to think about how we approach a battle. Right now, most AoE attacks are either so weak they can be almost completely ignored or so powerful that they just end any attempt at killing the enemy, and there's nothing you can do about it besides putting up PD. More thought needs to go into how a boss' attacks are programmed instead of using the approach of "I want this enemy to be harder than other enemies so his AoE will be larger, do more damage, and inflict worse status effects!"

[Freebytes]

Some of the best targets in terms of skill that I have seen were primarily from level 75 and they did not involve very many gimmicks in terms of 'triggering'. These were also some of the most fun fights. They were Sky Gods, high tier Zeni NMs, Kirin, Proto-Omega, Proto-Ultima, Jailer of Love, Salvage Chariots, all three KSNM99 monsters, and Jormungand. While these creatures did not require vast amounts of skill, it still adequately separated players with no skill from some with better skill, and this was fun. In addition, the rewards were adequate from all of these even if the drop rates were limited.

If we could have fights similar to these without the ability to zerg every one of them, that would be great. I do not care for stagger gimmicks that work on every mob in the zone but having a different strategy for each mob would be nice. I prefer longer fights with greater chance of good rewards over short fights with a low chance of a reward.

I would also like to see creatures that highlight some benefits of each job without 'staggering'. For example, if you have a creature that is immune to everything except stun, bind and shadowbind, and it has a move where it will use hundred fists and hit for 500 per swing, you would be recommended to bring a RDM or RNG, but you would not be required to have both or either necessarily. A BLM could stun it immediately when it starts Hundred Fists, everyone could get out of the way, and another player could bind it in place.

If you had a creature that used a chainspell move with a specific element but could not be enfeebled with anything except slow and paralyze, it would be beneficial to bring a tank that had a resist build. Creatures that require players to maintain hate and know where to stand are also great. KSNM99 creatures were fantastic. Behemoth was best done with kiting or well timed weaponskills, Wyrm required people to run away at specific points and for a good tank, and the turtle required well timed skill chains and magic bursting. These were excellent. I would like to see more creatures similar to this rather than simply having it blast people with massive AoEs without warning.

[Emitremmus]

I personally liked the way you had the option of enfeebling an enemy with items in the CoP era. Perhaps re-including items that aren't going to be terribly dreadful to obtain would be a fun thing to introduce again. A wolf enemy resembling Fenrir, and you have to throw a steak to distract him for instance. Who here can honestly say that an alliance of steak tossing fighters would not be fun?

Using the terrain to your advantage would be cool as well. For example, an area where you fight a monster that can only take damage when it is standing in water. So you have to move him around where you want, let him get impacted by the water, unleash all the damage you can, and he flees away from his weakness. Cool stuff.

Another thing I'm a fan of, is the damage specific types of enemies a la A Shattoto Ascension (and that one ahriman in Abyssea - Konschtat, but screw that guy.) A monster that is only weak to skillchain damage? Heck yes. Forcing people to work together and play accordingly...uh oh. Of course all melee attacks would have to do at least 1 damage to trigger a skillchain, but you feel me.

[Mirage]

Are you trying to tell me that screws aren't meant to be hammered in?