Remove or decrease race penalties

[FrankReynolds]

The race differences are a significant factor in how many people chose their characters and how skilled players choose to play now. It wouldn't be right to require them to change just because a handful of players have remorse.

That is a major problem. Returning players or those making mules may know what they are doing, but expecting a person who has never played before to know what class is going to suite their play style for months / years to come is asking way too much.

Even if you make an incredibly well informed decision as to race, that doesn't mean that SE isn't going to hit the F.U. button and nerf/ignore the job that you had in mind when you picked your race into oblivion (I'm looking at you red mage), forcing you to change to a main job that is less optimally geared towards your race.

If I had known that they would turn red mage into such a crapfest back when I made my hume character, I would have chosen galka or elf instead and not worried about mage related stats. As it is, I sacrificed what I wanted and picked a hume when I would have preferred a taru because I was worried that I would get screwed even worse by choosing Taru and it was a wise decision apparently based on how things turned out. The long and the short is that there are 20+ jobs and most people can't get by in various endgame events without having one or two from each class geared up. Meaning that the whole "You should have chosen more wisely" argument is pretty much out the window. You can no longer choose the correct race for your job. You now have to choose the race that sucks at less jobs than the other races.

Give them the option to change, just don't lump everyone into the same group.

How would they implement that without giving some advantage either to people who didn't use it or people who did? IE if they just raise stats across the board to make them even, who on earth would choose to pass on that? And if they lower stats to make them even, who on earth would choose to do that?

[Thegreatmonkey]

That is a major problem. Returning players or those making mules may know what they are doing, but expecting a person who has never played before to know what class is going to suite their play style for months / years to come is asking way too much.

When I fist started to play this game (way back when it first came out in NA), I made a Hume knowing that there stats were more even. I later made a Tarutaru because I wanted the INT bonus and the races itself makes the game more fun. Tarutaru having low HP for just about any job they play and they have to keep that in mine when going to do events and what not. I don't think anything should be changed to make the races have more even stats as this dose add more divinity into the game. So what if I play a melee job on my Tarutaru, I will take that into account and add my own play stylist to it, to make up for the stat lost that I do not have for that job. There are a lot of ways that new players coming into the game can look at what each race stats start at.

[Chocobits]

Wow you have an army of Taru's demanding more HP and to a lessor degree more STR but not willing to balance that out with other stats.

I'd prefer an overall increase in HP not making Taru's have as nearly as much HP as everyone else while still maintaining their INT and MP advantage.

Seconded. The marginal differences on base attribute stats adds flavor and realism.

An X% increase in HP/MP across the board for all races would be a nice fixer for a start. Also, re-examination of HP/MP allotments per job is something I've long felt overdue.

[Llana_Virren]

That is a major problem. Returning players or those making mules may know what they are doing, but expecting a person who has never played before to know what class is going to suite their play style for months / years to come is asking way too much.

Logic error. "Returning players or those making mules" learned the lesson based on the current system; they didn't automatically know. There's no difference to new players, except new players now have a gross amount of information available to them (that we didn't have in 2002); so they should be more prepared to make that decision than experienced players were.

[Arcon]

Logic error. "Returning players or those making mules" learned the lesson based on the current system; they didn't automatically know. There's no difference to new players, except new players now have a gross amount of information available to them (that we didn't have in 2002); so they should be more prepared to make that decision than experienced players were.

That entire paragraph is one gaping logic error, at two fronts. First, when a new player makes their character they don't read everything their is to know about it but proceed to make it based on their preference, and even if they do, it's misleading because they get the wrong impression about stats. Newbies think STR or VIT matters a lot, or that having much MP is essential for mages, so they make their decisions based on misconceptions.

Second, what does it matter that they're more prepared now than returning players were when they first started? He mentioned new players now versus returning players now, and since we live in the now and not in the past, that's the only relevant scenario.

[FrankReynolds]

Logic error. "Returning players or those making mules" learned the lesson based on the current system; they didn't automatically know. There's no difference to new players, except new players now have a gross amount of information available to them (that we didn't have in 2002); so they should be more prepared to make that decision than experienced players were.

That whole paragraph was a "Logic error". I know more about this game than most people would care to know, but I still don't know what race is going to be best for geomancer and I certainly don't know what race will do best as a used car salesman or whatever other job they choose to develop in the future. Neither do you or any one else on this board. So give it up with the "Oh people should just choose wisely" nonsense.

When I fist started to play this game (way back when it first came out in NA), I made a Hume knowing that there stats were more even. I later made a Tarutaru because I wanted the INT bonus and the races itself makes the game more fun. Tarutaru having low HP for just about any job they play and they have to keep that in mine when going to do events and what not. I don't think anything should be changed to make the races have more even stats as this dose add more divinity into the game. So what if I play a melee job on my Tarutaru, I will take that into account and add my own play stylist to it, to make up for the stat lost that I do not have for that job. There are a lot of ways that new players coming into the game can look at what each race stats start at.

That's all good and fine, except that you can't adjust your playstyle to get into my group because I know that your going to get one-shotted and I'm grabbing a galka instead. Sorry if that sounds rude, but the same crap happened to galkas back before massive refresh was added to the game. They used to get denied on mage jobs for lack of MP. I find it hard to believe that any of that enhances your enjoyment of the game, even if you think it does. These are the two most obvious problems, but definitely not the only ones.

[Thegreatmonkey]

That's all good and fine, except that you can't adjust your playstyle to get into my group because I know that your going to get one-shotted and I'm grabbing a galka instead. Sorry if that sounds rude, but the same crap happened to galkas back before massive refresh was added to the game. They used to get denied on mage jobs for lack of MP. I find it hard to believe that any of that enhances your enjoyment of the game, even if you think it does. These are the two most obvious problems, but definitely not the only ones.

Well for any end game events I'll be going a mage job class. I know I can get one-shooted by a lot of things but I am also able to control how much hate I build up on the mob so I never pull hate. I'm a mage person at heart and dont really care for melee jobs except for THF.

[Arcon]

Well for any end game events I'll be going a mage job class. I know I can get one-shooted by a lot of things but I am also able to control how much hate I build up on the mob so I never pull hate. I'm a mage person at heart and dont really care for melee jobs except for THF.

Unless their 30' AoE gets off. Or even 20' AoE, which will often screw you.

[Thegreatmonkey]

Unless their 30' AoE gets off. Or even 20' AoE, which will often screw you.

OK, you got me there. The AoEs the new enemy's have is really big and should be reduced to maybe 15' or 10' and the amount of damage it dose could also be reduced. I am able to live thought one of the cast if I have Stoneskin up yet normally they get a 2nd one off before I can get stoneskin back up and fully heal myself but I also run away after I lose stoneskin to put it back up to fully heal myself.

Gear and stats do not really do much for a person. These only help out the players who know how to player there job well.

[Llana_Virren]

That entire paragraph is one gaping logic error, at two fronts. First, when a new player makes their character they don't read everything their is to know about it but proceed to make it based on their preference, and even if they do, it's misleading because they get the wrong impression about stats. Newbies think STR or VIT matters a lot, or that having much MP is essential for mages, so they make their decisions based on misconceptions.

Second, what does it matter that they're more prepared now than returning players were when they first started? He mentioned new players now versus returning players now, and since we live in the now and not in the past, that's the only relevant scenario.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

Those who chose a race based on either a practical or aesthetic preference is still their decision.

1. Are you seriously saying that the reason why race stats should be mitigated is because players are too lazy or apathetic to the information? If they didn't care when they chose the race, why care now?

Many parts of the game have changed and yes, these changes have had direct and indirect impact on a player's choices (race, merits, time spent on an event prior to difficulty nerfs, etc). However, that doesn't directly address how the race stats ought to be removed or decreased. I started the game as a Mithra Red Mage. I knew that the status quo was "Tarus make better mages" and "Elvaans give more MND." But despite my choice I was still able to play the job more successfully than most because I learned the mechanics of the job.

If you're suggesting that picking a certain race hurts your gameplay, then I'm sorry but you're playing wrong. I don't think that's what you are actually suggesting, but I know some people think this.

However, if you're suggesting that picking a certain race will increase your performance (albeit marginally) and you want to make up for having that few less STR than say a Hume or Elvaan (which I think is the argument), I'd call that "buyer's remorse".

Differences in race play a role in creating an immersible fantasy world. I know this sounds like a cop-out explanation, but the psychology of MMOs in general require a certain amount of "fantasy" to be mixed with a certain amount of "reality." This is needed to allow players to fully engage with their avatar and enjoy the gaming experience. This is the same reason why collision detection exists, amongst other things. Historically Taru are mages, and thus their stats lean towards that specialty. Humes are known in almost all gaming universes as being the most "neutral" and adaptable race. Elvaans are known to be knights (specifically PLDs) and thus their stats gear towards those jobs.

I acknowledge that the stats are poorly adjusted from 75-99; especially in the area of HP. However the argument that players do not care so it shouldn't matter is a failed argument.

2. As my response started, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." In the now, players (across many games) are spoiled and want immediate reparations for bad decisions... being able to request end-game or expansion-based rewards isn't enough. The issue, as I see it, is player identity. Players make their character into who they are through their gameplay and social interaction. As I said, being a Mithra didn't impact my ability to play RDM because I dedicated myself to the job.

What I suspect is happening is not that players think that race traits are irrelevant. What I think is happening is players are attributing the marginal differences in stats between the races as to why "Player A does more damage than me" and the reasoning is that if you baseline all the races, they'll be on more equal footing. Anticipating a player's change of heart in what job to play is not SE's responsibility. Their role is to ensure that the jobs are balanced. (No, they're not doing a good job at this, but that's another topic altogether).

What I think would have been nice is if the EXP grind was less arduous; and if all gear was deliverable to accounts under the same ID. This would allow you to simply pick different races... (maybe even give them the same name!) and level, merit and gear them appropriately.

However to mute the differences between the races, in my opinion, minimizes the fantastical and real aspects of the game, it reduces player-contribution to character development, and perpetuates the overwhelming irresponsibility of future MMO playerbases.