Remove or decrease race penalties

[Arcon]

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

A bullshit saying that history teachers use as their sole justification for why learning history is important.

1. Are you seriously saying that the reason why race stats should be mitigated is because players are too lazy or apathetic to the information? If they didn't care when they chose the race, why care now?

They do care, but that information is not readily available. It doesn't say anywhere accessible that HP is the most important of them. You call someone lazy or apathetic because they don't wanna read through fifteen 100-page NM strategy threads where they see that people get one-shot due to lower HP? This entire argument is a lie.

Also, I never said I was even in favor of this, I just said your argument was bullshit. I do believe the HP/MP discrepancy is too high, but personally I don't care too much about the rest.

If you're suggesting that picking a certain race hurts your gameplay, then I'm sorry but you're playing wrong. I don't think that's what you are actually suggesting, but I know some people think this.

It wasn't what I suggested, but it is very true, and you have the IQ of a deck chair if you don't see why, especially because it's been said at least five times on every page of this thread. Picking a Tarutaru will get you one-shot easily, while picking a Galka won't. How is that not a significant gameplay disadvantage?

However, if you're suggesting that picking a certain race will increase your performance (albeit marginally) and you want to make up for having that few less STR than say a Hume or Elvaan (which I think is the argument), I'd call that "buyer's remorse".

And why shouldn't that be addressed? This is the worst kind of buyer's remorse, because it's permanent. It's not just some money lost that you can make again. I paid 5 euros last night to go to the Sneak Preview, knowing there was a chance they could show the same shitty movie I saw the week before in another cinema, and it happened. So I walked out. Buyer's remorse, I made a mistake. But even though it cost me real money I'd still prefer it over a mistake in choosing a race, because it's a mistake that sticks with you throughout your entire FFXI career and there's nothing you can do about it.

It's actually a FFXI-unique issue, because in other games races and classes are often tailored to one another, and mistakes like this do not happen. But in FFXI, where one race can play every job, it is a noticeable problem.

However to mute the differences between the races, in my opinion, minimizes the fantastical and real aspects of the game, it reduces player-contribution to character development, and perpetuates the overwhelming irresponsibility of future MMO playerbases.

That is the only argument there ever was against this change, everything else is, as you described it yourself earlier, a cop-out explanation. And this is subjective. I personally believe variety comes from the people playing the game, not from stat difference. It's like the people saying being allowed to merit everything reduces player variation, which is equally wrong. Stats do not make a player, only people make a player. Variation will always be there as long as humans play this game.

[Llana_Virren]

A bullshit saying that history teachers use as their sole justification for why learning history is important.

If you think that this only applies to your History 101 class... then you're not gonna understand what it means at all.

They do care, but that information is not readily available. It doesn't say anywhere accessible that HP is the most important of them. You call someone lazy or apathetic because they don't wanna read through fifteen 100-page NM strategy threads where they see that people get one-shot due to lower HP? This entire argument is a lie.

Also, I never said I was even in favor of this, I just said your argument was bullshit. I do believe the HP/MP discrepancy is too high, but personally I don't care too much about the rest.

It wasn't what I suggested, but it is very true, and you have the IQ of a deck chair if you don't see why, especially because it's been said at least five times on every page of this thread. Picking a Tarutaru will get you one-shot easily, while picking a Galka won't. How is that not a significant gameplay disadvantage?

Tarutaru have always been imperiled by HP, the whole NM-can-oneshot-you arguement is how entire alliances can be decimated and the few survivors picked off at will. However:

And why shouldn't that be addressed? This is the worst kind of buyer's remorse, because it's permanent. It's not just some money lost that you can make again. I paid 5 euros last night to go to the Sneak Preview, knowing there was a chance they could show the same shitty movie I saw the week before in another cinema, and it happened. So I walked out. Buyer's remorse, I made a mistake. But even though it cost me real money I'd still prefer it over a mistake in choosing a race, because it's a mistake that sticks with you throughout your entire FFXI career and there's nothing you can do about it.

Here's the thing... it ISN'T permanent. You can make as many characters you want. You are not bound to one race for all eternity. The problem is not that the races are unfairly different... the problem is that the game was not designed in a way that made levelling multiple characters convenient enough to be viable or using the same character for everything. And I actually made this point, if your reading comprehension was invested into what I was saying rather than why you disagree.

It's actually a FFXI-unique issue, because in other games races and classes are often tailored to one another, and mistakes like this do not happen. But in FFXI, where one race can play every job, it is a noticeable problem.

Tarutaru are(were) tailored to mages; Elvaans and Galka tailored to jobs such as DRK, WAR, PLD, MNK; Mithra tailored to RNG and THF. However allowing races to play [I]every/I] job means you didn't have to start second/third characters.

That is the only argument there ever was against this change, everything else is, as you described it yourself earlier, a cop-out explanation. And this is subjective. I personally believe variety comes from the people playing the game, not from stat difference. It's like the people saying being allowed to merit everything reduces player variation, which is equally wrong. Stats do not make a player, only people make a player. Variation will always be there as long as humans play this game.

I said that it might look like a cop-out, and rather than try to figure out what I was saying, you went along with it.

And LOL if you think having every player in the game have all merits maxed (read as: all merits maxed if you missed that) will somehow create variation. The merit system is borked because there are clear winning/losing merit options; everyone having all merits capped means merits are meaningless.

[FrankReynolds]

If you think that this only applies to your History 101 class... then you're not gonna understand what it means at all.

I think he fully understands it. Probably more so than you. Your usage of the phrase was incorrect. You used it because you had no real counterpoint.

have always been imperiled by HP, the whole NM-can-oneshot-you arguement is how entire alliances can be decimated and the few survivors picked off at will.

While it is a neat piece of trivia, this does not support your point of view in any way.

Here's the thing... it ISN'T permanent. You can make as many characters you want. You are not bound to one race for all eternity. The problem is not that the races are unfairly different... the problem is that the game was not designed in a way that made levelling multiple characters convenient enough to be viable or using the same character for everything. And I actually made this point, if your reading comprehension was invested into what I was saying rather than why you disagree.

It's permanent to my character. If I'm going to have to erase all my work and start from scratch, I'll do it on a new game and so would most other people. Only crazy people enjoy having to repeat all the same work the have already done in order to get back to exactly where they were before. Do you quit your job every year and reapply in hopes of starting at the bottom and working your way back up the ladder again? Here's a final fantasy specific quote for you:

"Anyone who rerolls in order to change their race to one more fitting for their favorite job is destined to have their favorite job change and have to reroll again... and again... and again".

Tarutaru are(were) tailored to mages; Elvaans and Galka tailored to jobs such as DRK, WAR, PLD, MNK; Mithra tailored to RNG and THF. However allowing races to play [I]every/I] job means you didn't have to start second/third characters.

Except that it does mean that you need to level second and or third characters if you want to excel at your job and let's be honest. This entire game is about excelling at your job.

I said that it might look like a cop-out, and rather than try to figure out what I was saying, you went along with it.

It is a cop out. There are only a few races. You are not original because you picked a cat woman. There are 40,000 other people with the exact same character model. Individualism comes through deciding which events to do and what gear to wear and how to write your macros or choosing to not use them at all. It comes through choosing subjobs and casting spells at the appropriate times. It comes through interaction with other players etc. etc. etc... If there were only three people on the whole server and 2 of them were Taru, but you were mithra, you might have a point. That is, until another guy logged in and picked mithra. Then you're no longer a special snowflake until you find a real way to differentiate yourself from him.

And LOL if you think having every player in the game have all merits maxed (read as: all merits maxed if you missed that) will somehow create variation. The merit system is borked because there are clear winning/losing merit options; everyone having all merits capped means merits are meaningless.

Merits are already meaningless in that sense. Everyone picks the same ones and the end result is exactly the same as if everyone had maxxed them all. The only difference is that it adds a new reason for people to grind out merits and a touch of convenience.

[SpankWustler]

Are you seriously saying that the reason why race stats should be mitigated is because players are too lazy or apathetic to the information? If they didn't care when they chose the race, why care now?

I'm pretty sure that information on how vital max HP would be to melee in Legion, and potentially other future end-game events, wasn't available to anybody who created a character long before Legion existed.

The extreme lows and highs that Tarutaru and Galka have for HP and MP could be softened a bit without changing the flavor of the five races, though, and those are the only two race-statistics that have any negative effect on game-play.

[FrankReynolds]

The extreme lows and highs that Tarutaru and Galka have for HP and MP could be softened a bit without changing the flavor of the five races, though, and those are the only two race-statistics that have any negative effect on game-play.

How much would people pay to add 11 strength and 8 attack to <insert piece here>? I'm guessing that some people would spend months / millions working on that sort of upgrade. But Joey over there got it just for clicking "Select". Doesn't seem right in a game that revolves almost entirely around miniscule upgrades does it?

[Thegreatmonkey]

One of my friends made a good point, she said:

Defense and Vitally needs to be fixed. It's crazy being hit for a large variety of damage when u have protect/phalanx up. 50 one time and 180, non-crit, the next. Unless the all mobs have some kinda trait that doesn't matter what your defense is.

I found out after I selected Elvaan that it wasn't the "best" for mage jobs but I didn't care. There are merits, gear, and learning a way around the "handicaps" the races have.

I think SE should just fix these two as they have been broken for sometime now. Defense and vitally means you take less damage over all from mobs.

[Llana_Virren]

Stuff

How are you proving your point by disproving your point.

If there's enough customization, then changing races or merits wouldn't be needed. You're suggesting blanding the races so that players can do better with a race choice that doesn't match the jobs they want to play. That's not logical and that's not how MMOs work.

We're agreeing that everyone needs more HP but you're saying that Taru having less HP naturally makes them more likely to get one-shotted... well thats part of the race. Less HP but more MP. The HP argument (or STR/VIT/insert stat here) argument isn't about one race out-sucking another. Those are not taru-only problems. And since they need to be adjusted over-all, there's no real need to go vanilla on race differences.

This isn't a cop out if you actually take the time to look beyond the "I want more STR but maxed it out on gear" argument, which is the real argument that no one wants to admit to.

[Llana_Virren]

One of my friends made a good point, she said:



I think SE should just fix these two as they have been broken for sometime now. Defense and vitally means you take less damage over all from mobs.

The problem is that players don't want to just work around the handicap of a race choice. They want to be able to deal the same damage as everyone else while still being a Taru. All the gear in the world and that damned Elvaan DRK still has more STR!

[FrankReynolds]

How are you proving your point by disproving your point.

If there's enough customization, then changing races or merits wouldn't be needed. You're suggesting blanding the races so that players can do better with a race choice that doesn't match the jobs they want to play. That's not logical and that's not how MMOs work.

Apparently you read that wrong. See, I can change my merits, gear etc. any time I want. Race is permanent at this time and that's why racial stats are an issue. You don't get to decide how MMOs work. That is what MMO developers do (in this case they are not sure yet if that is how their MMO will work in the future, hence the debate).

We're agreeing that everyone needs more HP but you're saying that Taru having less HP naturally makes them more likely to get one-shotted... well thats part of the race. Less HP but more MP. The HP argument (or STR/VIT/insert stat here) argument isn't about one race out-sucking another. Those are not taru-only problems. And since they need to be adjusted over-all, there's no real need to go vanilla on race differences.

This isn't a cop out if you actually take the time to look beyond the "I want more STR but maxed it out on gear" argument, which is the real argument that no one wants to admit to.

I'll happily admit it. If I quest the same gear and put in the same merits then I expect the same performance. I shouldn't be gimped by a decision I made 10 years ago that was rendered meaningless by the addition of 16 jobs.

[Arcon]

If there's enough customization, then changing races or merits wouldn't be needed.

That's the point. They aren't needed.

You're suggesting blanding the races so that players can do better with a race choice that doesn't match the jobs they want to play. That's not logical and that's not how MMOs work.

You are mistaken in assuming race has anything to do with jobs. That is not how FFXI works. FFXI's unique job system allows people to play all jobs regardless of race, and nothing else limits their job experience either, so why should race?

Making a new character to be good at other jobs is not an acceptable solution, the fact you even mentioned it shows you have no grasp whatsoever of how MMORPGs work.

Byrth said it very well:

I've got 99 Ragnarok, Ukonvasara, Twashtar, and Terpsichore, along with 110 Alchemy. Please tell me again how re-rolling is a viable option.

Choice of race is permanent for most people, regardless of how your mind works.

We're agreeing that everyone needs more HP but you're saying that Taru having less HP naturally makes them more likely to get one-shotted... well thats part of the race.

It's part of their race to suck at something but not be better at anything else? Tarutaru is objectively the worst race to play because of the importance of their worst stat, and non-importance of their good stats. INT may be arguable, but it's still nowhere near as important for mages as HP is for melee.

This isn't a cop out if you actually take the time to look beyond the "I want more STR but maxed it out on gear" argument, which is the real argument that no one wants to admit to.

Why would anyone even want that? What's so great about 11 extra STR? The (very unlikely) 1% damage output increase?

Attributing tens of millions of gil to 11 STR is not wrong but can be misleading. People pay that much for STR at the end of the spectrum not because 11 STR is actually that good, but because it is that rare. The hardest HQ items are hard to come by, both crafted ones as well as dropped ones. Price does not scale linearly, so looking at the end of the spectrum isn't representative for how good the stat is, but only how much the stat is worth. Which can still be a lot, because that doesn't mean that people wouldn't actually pay that much to get 11 STR. But that price is not representative for the stat as a whole, because it's determined by player desires and not by objective worth.