Remove or decrease race penalties

[Arcon]

Logic error. "Returning players or those making mules" learned the lesson based on the current system; they didn't automatically know. There's no difference to new players, except new players now have a gross amount of information available to them (that we didn't have in 2002); so they should be more prepared to make that decision than experienced players were.

That entire paragraph is one gaping logic error, at two fronts. First, when a new player makes their character they don't read everything their is to know about it but proceed to make it based on their preference, and even if they do, it's misleading because they get the wrong impression about stats. Newbies think STR or VIT matters a lot, or that having much MP is essential for mages, so they make their decisions based on misconceptions.

Second, what does it matter that they're more prepared now than returning players were when they first started? He mentioned new players now versus returning players now, and since we live in the now and not in the past, that's the only relevant scenario.

[Llana_Virren]

That entire paragraph is one gaping logic error, at two fronts. First, when a new player makes their character they don't read everything their is to know about it but proceed to make it based on their preference, and even if they do, it's misleading because they get the wrong impression about stats. Newbies think STR or VIT matters a lot, or that having much MP is essential for mages, so they make their decisions based on misconceptions.

Second, what does it matter that they're more prepared now than returning players were when they first started? He mentioned new players now versus returning players now, and since we live in the now and not in the past, that's the only relevant scenario.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

Those who chose a race based on either a practical or aesthetic preference is still their decision.

1. Are you seriously saying that the reason why race stats should be mitigated is because players are too lazy or apathetic to the information? If they didn't care when they chose the race, why care now?

Many parts of the game have changed and yes, these changes have had direct and indirect impact on a player's choices (race, merits, time spent on an event prior to difficulty nerfs, etc). However, that doesn't directly address how the race stats ought to be removed or decreased. I started the game as a Mithra Red Mage. I knew that the status quo was "Tarus make better mages" and "Elvaans give more MND." But despite my choice I was still able to play the job more successfully than most because I learned the mechanics of the job.

If you're suggesting that picking a certain race hurts your gameplay, then I'm sorry but you're playing wrong. I don't think that's what you are actually suggesting, but I know some people think this.

However, if you're suggesting that picking a certain race will increase your performance (albeit marginally) and you want to make up for having that few less STR than say a Hume or Elvaan (which I think is the argument), I'd call that "buyer's remorse".

Differences in race play a role in creating an immersible fantasy world. I know this sounds like a cop-out explanation, but the psychology of MMOs in general require a certain amount of "fantasy" to be mixed with a certain amount of "reality." This is needed to allow players to fully engage with their avatar and enjoy the gaming experience. This is the same reason why collision detection exists, amongst other things. Historically Taru are mages, and thus their stats lean towards that specialty. Humes are known in almost all gaming universes as being the most "neutral" and adaptable race. Elvaans are known to be knights (specifically PLDs) and thus their stats gear towards those jobs.

I acknowledge that the stats are poorly adjusted from 75-99; especially in the area of HP. However the argument that players do not care so it shouldn't matter is a failed argument.

2. As my response started, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." In the now, players (across many games) are spoiled and want immediate reparations for bad decisions... being able to request end-game or expansion-based rewards isn't enough. The issue, as I see it, is player identity. Players make their character into who they are through their gameplay and social interaction. As I said, being a Mithra didn't impact my ability to play RDM because I dedicated myself to the job.

What I suspect is happening is not that players think that race traits are irrelevant. What I think is happening is players are attributing the marginal differences in stats between the races as to why "Player A does more damage than me" and the reasoning is that if you baseline all the races, they'll be on more equal footing. Anticipating a player's change of heart in what job to play is not SE's responsibility. Their role is to ensure that the jobs are balanced. (No, they're not doing a good job at this, but that's another topic altogether).

What I think would have been nice is if the EXP grind was less arduous; and if all gear was deliverable to accounts under the same ID. This would allow you to simply pick different races... (maybe even give them the same name!) and level, merit and gear them appropriately.

However to mute the differences between the races, in my opinion, minimizes the fantastical and real aspects of the game, it reduces player-contribution to character development, and perpetuates the overwhelming irresponsibility of future MMO playerbases.

[Arcon]

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

A bullshit saying that history teachers use as their sole justification for why learning history is important.

1. Are you seriously saying that the reason why race stats should be mitigated is because players are too lazy or apathetic to the information? If they didn't care when they chose the race, why care now?

They do care, but that information is not readily available. It doesn't say anywhere accessible that HP is the most important of them. You call someone lazy or apathetic because they don't wanna read through fifteen 100-page NM strategy threads where they see that people get one-shot due to lower HP? This entire argument is a lie.

Also, I never said I was even in favor of this, I just said your argument was bullshit. I do believe the HP/MP discrepancy is too high, but personally I don't care too much about the rest.

If you're suggesting that picking a certain race hurts your gameplay, then I'm sorry but you're playing wrong. I don't think that's what you are actually suggesting, but I know some people think this.

It wasn't what I suggested, but it is very true, and you have the IQ of a deck chair if you don't see why, especially because it's been said at least five times on every page of this thread. Picking a Tarutaru will get you one-shot easily, while picking a Galka won't. How is that not a significant gameplay disadvantage?

However, if you're suggesting that picking a certain race will increase your performance (albeit marginally) and you want to make up for having that few less STR than say a Hume or Elvaan (which I think is the argument), I'd call that "buyer's remorse".

And why shouldn't that be addressed? This is the worst kind of buyer's remorse, because it's permanent. It's not just some money lost that you can make again. I paid 5 euros last night to go to the Sneak Preview, knowing there was a chance they could show the same shitty movie I saw the week before in another cinema, and it happened. So I walked out. Buyer's remorse, I made a mistake. But even though it cost me real money I'd still prefer it over a mistake in choosing a race, because it's a mistake that sticks with you throughout your entire FFXI career and there's nothing you can do about it.

It's actually a FFXI-unique issue, because in other games races and classes are often tailored to one another, and mistakes like this do not happen. But in FFXI, where one race can play every job, it is a noticeable problem.

However to mute the differences between the races, in my opinion, minimizes the fantastical and real aspects of the game, it reduces player-contribution to character development, and perpetuates the overwhelming irresponsibility of future MMO playerbases.

That is the only argument there ever was against this change, everything else is, as you described it yourself earlier, a cop-out explanation. And this is subjective. I personally believe variety comes from the people playing the game, not from stat difference. It's like the people saying being allowed to merit everything reduces player variation, which is equally wrong. Stats do not make a player, only people make a player. Variation will always be there as long as humans play this game.

[Llana_Virren]

A bullshit saying that history teachers use as their sole justification for why learning history is important.

If you think that this only applies to your History 101 class... then you're not gonna understand what it means at all.

They do care, but that information is not readily available. It doesn't say anywhere accessible that HP is the most important of them. You call someone lazy or apathetic because they don't wanna read through fifteen 100-page NM strategy threads where they see that people get one-shot due to lower HP? This entire argument is a lie.

Also, I never said I was even in favor of this, I just said your argument was bullshit. I do believe the HP/MP discrepancy is too high, but personally I don't care too much about the rest.

It wasn't what I suggested, but it is very true, and you have the IQ of a deck chair if you don't see why, especially because it's been said at least five times on every page of this thread. Picking a Tarutaru will get you one-shot easily, while picking a Galka won't. How is that not a significant gameplay disadvantage?

Tarutaru have always been imperiled by HP, the whole NM-can-oneshot-you arguement is how entire alliances can be decimated and the few survivors picked off at will. However:

And why shouldn't that be addressed? This is the worst kind of buyer's remorse, because it's permanent. It's not just some money lost that you can make again. I paid 5 euros last night to go to the Sneak Preview, knowing there was a chance they could show the same shitty movie I saw the week before in another cinema, and it happened. So I walked out. Buyer's remorse, I made a mistake. But even though it cost me real money I'd still prefer it over a mistake in choosing a race, because it's a mistake that sticks with you throughout your entire FFXI career and there's nothing you can do about it.

Here's the thing... it ISN'T permanent. You can make as many characters you want. You are not bound to one race for all eternity. The problem is not that the races are unfairly different... the problem is that the game was not designed in a way that made levelling multiple characters convenient enough to be viable or using the same character for everything. And I actually made this point, if your reading comprehension was invested into what I was saying rather than why you disagree.

It's actually a FFXI-unique issue, because in other games races and classes are often tailored to one another, and mistakes like this do not happen. But in FFXI, where one race can play every job, it is a noticeable problem.

Tarutaru are(were) tailored to mages; Elvaans and Galka tailored to jobs such as DRK, WAR, PLD, MNK; Mithra tailored to RNG and THF. However allowing races to play [I]every/I] job means you didn't have to start second/third characters.

That is the only argument there ever was against this change, everything else is, as you described it yourself earlier, a cop-out explanation. And this is subjective. I personally believe variety comes from the people playing the game, not from stat difference. It's like the people saying being allowed to merit everything reduces player variation, which is equally wrong. Stats do not make a player, only people make a player. Variation will always be there as long as humans play this game.

I said that it might look like a cop-out, and rather than try to figure out what I was saying, you went along with it.

And LOL if you think having every player in the game have all merits maxed (read as: all merits maxed if you missed that) will somehow create variation. The merit system is borked because there are clear winning/losing merit options; everyone having all merits capped means merits are meaningless.

[FrankReynolds]

If you think that this only applies to your History 101 class... then you're not gonna understand what it means at all.

I think he fully understands it. Probably more so than you. Your usage of the phrase was incorrect. You used it because you had no real counterpoint.

have always been imperiled by HP, the whole NM-can-oneshot-you arguement is how entire alliances can be decimated and the few survivors picked off at will.

While it is a neat piece of trivia, this does not support your point of view in any way.

Here's the thing... it ISN'T permanent. You can make as many characters you want. You are not bound to one race for all eternity. The problem is not that the races are unfairly different... the problem is that the game was not designed in a way that made levelling multiple characters convenient enough to be viable or using the same character for everything. And I actually made this point, if your reading comprehension was invested into what I was saying rather than why you disagree.

It's permanent to my character. If I'm going to have to erase all my work and start from scratch, I'll do it on a new game and so would most other people. Only crazy people enjoy having to repeat all the same work the have already done in order to get back to exactly where they were before. Do you quit your job every year and reapply in hopes of starting at the bottom and working your way back up the ladder again? Here's a final fantasy specific quote for you:

"Anyone who rerolls in order to change their race to one more fitting for their favorite job is destined to have their favorite job change and have to reroll again... and again... and again".

Tarutaru are(were) tailored to mages; Elvaans and Galka tailored to jobs such as DRK, WAR, PLD, MNK; Mithra tailored to RNG and THF. However allowing races to play [I]every/I] job means you didn't have to start second/third characters.

Except that it does mean that you need to level second and or third characters if you want to excel at your job and let's be honest. This entire game is about excelling at your job.

I said that it might look like a cop-out, and rather than try to figure out what I was saying, you went along with it.

It is a cop out. There are only a few races. You are not original because you picked a cat woman. There are 40,000 other people with the exact same character model. Individualism comes through deciding which events to do and what gear to wear and how to write your macros or choosing to not use them at all. It comes through choosing subjobs and casting spells at the appropriate times. It comes through interaction with other players etc. etc. etc... If there were only three people on the whole server and 2 of them were Taru, but you were mithra, you might have a point. That is, until another guy logged in and picked mithra. Then you're no longer a special snowflake until you find a real way to differentiate yourself from him.

And LOL if you think having every player in the game have all merits maxed (read as: all merits maxed if you missed that) will somehow create variation. The merit system is borked because there are clear winning/losing merit options; everyone having all merits capped means merits are meaningless.

Merits are already meaningless in that sense. Everyone picks the same ones and the end result is exactly the same as if everyone had maxxed them all. The only difference is that it adds a new reason for people to grind out merits and a touch of convenience.

[Llana_Virren]

Stuff

How are you proving your point by disproving your point.

If there's enough customization, then changing races or merits wouldn't be needed. You're suggesting blanding the races so that players can do better with a race choice that doesn't match the jobs they want to play. That's not logical and that's not how MMOs work.

We're agreeing that everyone needs more HP but you're saying that Taru having less HP naturally makes them more likely to get one-shotted... well thats part of the race. Less HP but more MP. The HP argument (or STR/VIT/insert stat here) argument isn't about one race out-sucking another. Those are not taru-only problems. And since they need to be adjusted over-all, there's no real need to go vanilla on race differences.

This isn't a cop out if you actually take the time to look beyond the "I want more STR but maxed it out on gear" argument, which is the real argument that no one wants to admit to.

[FrankReynolds]

How are you proving your point by disproving your point.

If there's enough customization, then changing races or merits wouldn't be needed. You're suggesting blanding the races so that players can do better with a race choice that doesn't match the jobs they want to play. That's not logical and that's not how MMOs work.

Apparently you read that wrong. See, I can change my merits, gear etc. any time I want. Race is permanent at this time and that's why racial stats are an issue. You don't get to decide how MMOs work. That is what MMO developers do (in this case they are not sure yet if that is how their MMO will work in the future, hence the debate).

We're agreeing that everyone needs more HP but you're saying that Taru having less HP naturally makes them more likely to get one-shotted... well thats part of the race. Less HP but more MP. The HP argument (or STR/VIT/insert stat here) argument isn't about one race out-sucking another. Those are not taru-only problems. And since they need to be adjusted over-all, there's no real need to go vanilla on race differences.

This isn't a cop out if you actually take the time to look beyond the "I want more STR but maxed it out on gear" argument, which is the real argument that no one wants to admit to.

I'll happily admit it. If I quest the same gear and put in the same merits then I expect the same performance. I shouldn't be gimped by a decision I made 10 years ago that was rendered meaningless by the addition of 16 jobs.

[SpankWustler]

Are you seriously saying that the reason why race stats should be mitigated is because players are too lazy or apathetic to the information? If they didn't care when they chose the race, why care now?

I'm pretty sure that information on how vital max HP would be to melee in Legion, and potentially other future end-game events, wasn't available to anybody who created a character long before Legion existed.

The extreme lows and highs that Tarutaru and Galka have for HP and MP could be softened a bit without changing the flavor of the five races, though, and those are the only two race-statistics that have any negative effect on game-play.

[FrankReynolds]

The extreme lows and highs that Tarutaru and Galka have for HP and MP could be softened a bit without changing the flavor of the five races, though, and those are the only two race-statistics that have any negative effect on game-play.

How much would people pay to add 11 strength and 8 attack to <insert piece here>? I'm guessing that some people would spend months / millions working on that sort of upgrade. But Joey over there got it just for clicking "Select". Doesn't seem right in a game that revolves almost entirely around miniscule upgrades does it?