To Devs: Fix Blu

[Yugl]

If you go back to when I first mentioned these spells, it was that until content was added (such as NMs who can put 6+ shadows up) or Magian trials, Diaga and Poisonga had no purpose. Being given a purpose now does not mean that they were always useful.

Well first off, you're lying or unaware of the purpose pre-TOAU. Just a few instances of Diaga and Poisonga serving purposes:
- Ballista (Very common back then and these spells were useful for combating the popular sub NIN)
- Ninja mobs in general (High haste did not exist back then, so AOEs were viable means of handling Ninja mobs)
- Occultation off particular Empties
- Train links off another PT member
- Gather multiple PHs (Remember, very few had access to WS then)
- Farming applications

The argument I was countering was that BLU spells never had a purpose and are therefore a waste of data space. Protect/Shell 1-3 are a waste of data space because they no longer have a purpose; just like tier 1 nukes, and diaga, and poisonga, etc. Having magically stumbled upon a use in 2010 doesn't mean they magically became useful from 2002-2010.

True, developing a use later does not mean the use existed prior. Your example is quite the inverse of this thought though. The spells of previous tiers (ex: Protect) served a purpose prior and no longer serve that purpose. The tier one nukes, diaga, poisonga, and others did (And technically still do) serve a purpose, so they're not comparable to a spell that never served a purpose. That said, even if such a spell existed, why would you support the implementation of a spell that serves no purpose?

You can't use the 2002-2012 argument of "well spells used to be useful but now they suck" (pro-fix) without also accepting the fact that some spells used to have no use and now they do (my position). You can't ignore the mechanics of the game as a whole while addressing that the test server doesn't match the live server. They aren't supposed to.

Quite frankly, this paragraph makes no sense. Consider rephrasing without rhetoric. You're saying I cannot address the fact that the test and real server do not match while ignoring the mechanics of the game. Yet, the very issue I point out is related to mechanics. Specifically, the magic accuracy of a set of spells and weapon skills. If the battle mechanics (i.e. those not related to issues of access and acquisition) are different, then players cannot feasibly test features of the game. You need to explain why the battle mechanics of the real server "shouldn't" match the test server because intending for there to be differences between the real and test server is quite contradictory to the idea of "testing."

Blue Mage gets modified versions of the monsters spells, SE kinda of stated this years ago. For this reason I'm only speaking about the BLU versions as most monsters versions would be stupidly broken for a BLU to use.

To the above people saying the "test server and real server are different", you don't think SE knows this? You think that if they wanted Torbillion to have regular magic acc they would of copied that over when they implemented it? The production server is ~always~ the "correct" version, development servers are just that, for development.

It's now boiled down to a few people crying of very minor things they see as problems and saying that Blue "needs fixing" because of that.

You can keep on arguing but it won't change SE's position. Your own position has already been self defeated the moment you referenced the development server as being "right".

You're not SE and SE hasn't made an official announcement regarding this issue, so unless you're suggesting you're psychic (Which will carry another set of criticisms), step aside Ms. Cleo. If SE intends for Tourbillion to have reduced accuracy, they should make the test server reflect this as well. After all, with all other ninja nerfs, the test server has reflected that as well. So why should this be different?

As for the production server always being correct, that means you're saying the production server was correct when cures did 9999999999999 damage and the development server did not reflect that change. It seems you're trumped by your own argument. You would do well not to rephrase my argument because you tend to do so poorly. Nowhere did I state that the main server was the correct server. Neither can be stated as the intended effect until SE says so themselves. That said, the preliminary evidence supports the test server's results more favorably because the issue is sporadic (No consistency between weapons affected) and deviant from the existing situation.

Edit: I'm not sure how you managed to miss Mavrick's point. You're either feigning ignorance or simply incapable of consistency. He wasn't saying that BLU's 5% should mirror the BST version. He's saying that BST have a 33% defense down with high magic accuracy. Thus, countering your belief that such an incredible defense down must coincide magic accuracy difficulties.

[Llana_Virren]

Stuff that I shortened to keep the post short

The problem is that the "purposes" were few, if ever used. We're talking about when most (read as:virtually all) melees were /nin dual wielders, especially WAR/nin. By the time the already-quick-casting Diaga went off, the shadows were already gone.
Perhaps your experiences were a little worse for wear but aside from finishing CoP missions we didn't linger around the Empties.
I mean this as respectfully as I can, but the only purpose for ballista is to waste peoples time, so... quoting that will in my mind totally negate any argument... unless the argument was to kill ballista.

Bottom line is that you shouldn't be quoting the difference between live and test server mechanics. I said this quite some posts ago... the test server is to test things, so the mechanics and attributes of things are changed and are not true to the live servers. And adjustments made to one do not inherently have to be applied to the other.

For example, you could enhance Berserk on the test server to be a 50% bonus to ATK. Does that mean the live server is wrong? No. Adjustments made to the test server are made to either a) see how it affects current content and playstyle based on recorded experience, or b) prepare the test server for newer content and test for balancing... for all you know other BLU spells maybe be weakened on the live server (but not on the test server) if it is found to be the best way to "balance" some new content.

BLU is weak in some areas, sure. Some spells just don't "make sense." But not every spell needs to be relevant or keep its relevance in end-game content. As a (former-) RDM, I say make Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Bind, Gravity, Addle and others relevant before even thinking about touching BLU spells. BLUs are already one of, if not the most versatile, survivable and powerful jobs in the game. The entire premise behind this thread has been how to make BLU more powerful and not a single whimper has been made about what you would be willing to give up for it.

[Yugl]

Which was patched in an emergency maintenance shortly thereafter. It's been how many months now? Torbillion has never had high magic accuracy on production server, if SE wanted it then they would of already.

Just because SE can fix a problem, that doesn't mean they do immediately. The Salvage bans (Roughly a yr before action) and recent locking nerfs should sufficiently indicate that. Furthermore, they may not understand what causes the deficiency either. Recall that Meeble Burrow's glitch took weeks before they could patch the random crashes.

On the development server I can give myself 300,000,000 gil, I can't do that on the production server, so obviously there is a big where the moogle isn't offering me that option.

If the battle mechanics (i.e. those not related to issues of access and acquisition) are different, then players cannot feasibly test features of the game.

Show me how acquiring 100mil from the server doesn't constitute acquisition and does constitute a battle mechanic.

Torbillion / BC (and others) low potency and / or accuracy isn't a glitch or a bug, it's intentional or as the Dev's used to say "Working as Intended".

Where did they state this? Or is this more Ms.Cleo talk you're offering?

And seriously LULZ at your BST argument. The pet has to get TP first and won't be alive long enough on any content where you'd actually use the 33% def down effects. BLU on the other hand can do that once per 5min. Is a 25% def down / 25% attack down effect not good enough for you?

Any well constructed group and half-decent BST can manage to keep the pet up and have enough TP to perform said TP move. The fact that you think otherwise indicates that you play the respective class poorly or play with a poorly constructed group.

The problem is that the "purposes" were few, if ever used. We're talking about when most (read as:virtually all) melees were /nin dual wielders, especially WAR/nin. By the time the already-quick-casting Diaga went off, the shadows were already gone.

Your server either sponsored terrible Ballista matches or you never paid attention. The purpose of diaga is to enable close-range attacks on a distant foe without wasting attack rounds. Shadows don't just drop by themselves and dual-wielding only offers two reliable attacks. When the opponent sports 3-4 shadows, quick means of removal (Diaga and Poisonga) are optimal. The more you linger within enemy territory, the more opportunity you create for gate-breach.

Perhaps your experiences were a little worse for wear but aside from finishing CoP missions we didn't linger around the Empties.
I mean this as respectfully as I can, but the only purpose for ballista is to waste peoples time, so... quoting that will in my mind totally negate any argument... unless the argument was to kill ballista.

Ballista was popular for end game players because of the limited EG opportunities. Between Dynamis, Sky, and Ground Kings, the only one without an exaggerated wait was sky. Even that had limitations with respect to NM respawns. Aside from meriting, Ballista was one of the few alternatives for players that didn't require a dedicated large-scale group.

Ballista defense aside, you only managed to engage two out of five points. I'll take your silence as admission that said applications were relevant.

I said this quite some posts ago... the test server is to test things, so the mechanics and attributes of things are changed and are not true to the live servers. And adjustments made to one do not inherently have to be applied to the other.

If the purpose is to test content, then mirroring the battle mechanics best contributes to said tests. If SE gives us Abyssea level stats to test content, then the results are quite meaningless if said stats don't replicate on the real server.

For example, you could enhance Berserk on the test server to be a 50% bonus to ATK. Does that mean the live server is wrong? No. Adjustments made to the test server are made to either a) see how it affects current content and playstyle based on recorded experience, or b) prepare the test server for newer content and test for balancing... for all you know other BLU spells maybe be weakened on the live server (but not on the test server) if it is found to be the best way to "balance" some new content.

This ignores a critical component about the test server: The test server often updates to match the real server's battle mechanics post-update. Remember when Meteor was cast without ES? That feature is no longer present. However, these magic accuracy deficiencies have persisted over multiple update.

BLU is weak in some areas, sure. Some spells just don't "make sense." But not every spell needs to be relevant or keep its relevance in end-game content. As a (former-) RDM, I say make Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Bind, Gravity, Addle and others relevant before even thinking about touching BLU spells. BLUs are already one of, if not the most versatile, survivable and powerful jobs in the game. The entire premise behind this thread has been how to make BLU more powerful and not a single whimper has been made about what you would be willing to give up for it.

This is all irrelevant since the issue transcends BLU in particular. Take a look at these weapon skills:

-Tachi: Ageha (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Metatron Torment (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Onslaught (Add. effect: Accuracy down)
-Full Break (Add. effect: Accuracy, Attack, Defense, and Evasion down)
-Armor Break (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Shell Crusher (Add. effect: Defense down)
-Randgrith (Add. effect: Evasion down)
-Nightmare Scythe (Add. effect: Blind)
-Skullbreaker (Add. effect: INT down)

Three of them are relic weapon skills and none of them apply solely to BLU. So if the issue you pose is "But they would be overpowered!", then you're lacking the keen observation skills necessary to see that this applies to classes other than BLU. You also lack the observation skills necessary to see that an ability being glitched is independent of whether the applying class is overpowered. A DRK being overpowered within a zerg situation doesn't mean RCB giving an attack penalty isn't a glitch. Neither does BLU being "overpowered" outside of a zerg situation mean floored magic accuracy discrepancies aren't a glitches either.

[Llana_Virren]

A Derailed (not detailed) post

The subject of this conversation is "To Devs: Fix BLU" and the basis of the conversation was spells that are a waste of space because they do nothing.

Diaga may be relevant to Ballista, but Ballista is not relevant to the end-game no matter how tough you die-hards wish it to be.

We're not talking about weak v. strong weaponskills, and we're not talking about a problem that "transcends BLU". We're talking specifically about BLU. So create another thread if you want to talk about the dynamics of competing weaponskills.

Lastly, yes the test server in many ways mirrors or adjusts to the live server, however you're assuming that changes made to the test server after the live server imply "deficiencies" as you put it. I disagree; not everything about the live server should or needs to match the test server, and not every discrepancy is inherently a bug.

[SpankWustler]

The subject of this conversation is "To Devs: Fix BLU"

I agree this topic has an over-reaching title and the contents of the first post are way too scatter-shot to welcome focused discussion. That isn't unique to this topic, though.

Welcome to the Official Forums, where nobody has ever taken an English 101 course, nobody would appreciate the irony of being hit in the head with a copy of Ulysses rather than Models for Writers as punishment for poor conveyance of ideas through text, and everybody makes their way down the Magian Trail.

So, I try to pick something kinda-sorta related to a super-broad topic and respond to that. In this case, that happens to be the super-weird magic accuracy mechanic that affects Blue Magic from Sandspin to Tourbillion and weapon-skills from Skullbreaker to Full Break.

[Llana_Virren]

...[T]he Official Forums, where nobody has ever taken an English 101 course....

Welcome to the internet lol.