Interim Report – Sorry to keep you all waiting!

[ScreamingInDigital]

It's not the game's fault that people wait until they are level 99 before they start doing these things. People just usually do it when they've hit the cap because it's easier.

It's not the game's fault, for sure. It's the players' fault, because the advice being given to brand-new players who come in hoping to experience this amazing game they've seen people raving about for years is "just power-level to 99 and then solo it all".

I came back to the game recently from a break of ~2 years - probably longer. The change in the community overall (with exceptions) is amazing to me - and not in a good way. Veteran players have become so incredibly jaded and cynical about this game now that it's actually sad to see. I can not fathom what keeps some of them around.

I mean, if people who have "been there and done that" feel that the game has nothing more for them, except waiting for SE to toss them their next bone of end-game content and gear, that's one thing. That's on them.

But I can not stand it to see these same people passing that cynicism on to brand-new players coming in, with 10 years worth of quality content ahead of them - awesome storylines, cut-scenes, characters, dialog, events, challenges, and on and on... all that stuff that we went through and got to experience. All of that is still there. It doesn't cease to exist just because you've ("you" in general) finished it.

I mean, I read other forums, and I see it time and again. Someone new comes in eagerly and excitedly looking for people to group up with on their own journey through the game. Without fail, they're told, "Don't bother. FFXI now is all about the end-game. All that content now is obsolete and none of it matters anymore. Just get to 99 and solo it all if you want".

I've seen variations on that exact "advice" given to new players. I mean, really? Just because you (ditto) have seen and done it all and are disenchanted with the game, don't dump all over the experience for a new player.

"Well, the low levels are dead because everyone power-levels to end-game now". You know why everyone power-levels to end-game now? Because the veterans who "know the game best" are telling new players "hey, don't bother with doing low level content, just power level to 99". Go figure, huh? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's in the same vein as new players coming up through the Dunes who would insist that it was impossible to get through them without a power-leveler. I had that debate many times with people who insisted it couldn't be done. Why did they think that? Because when they started playing they saw a bunch of people in the Dunes with Power-Levelers turning the game into 10 levels of whack-a-mole. That's what new players saw, that's what they experienced, that's how they learned the game. Dunes for them became "Get a power-leveler or it's impossible". The idea that they simply should not be fighting mobs 8 levels higher than themselves never occurred to them.

And now it's happening with bitter, jaded and cynical Vets passing their "wisdom" on to new players by telling them that the low level content is out-dated and doesn't matter. For a brand-new player it's not out-dated at all. The stories are still just as great. The cut-scenes are still just as awesome. The fights could still be just as challenging and satisfying to complete. Why the hell would you want to discourage people from experiencing the game we all got to experience on our way up? Just because "you're past all that now and it doesn't matter to you anymore"?

Seriously... If you (again, ditto) are so cynical and so caught up in your own negativity about the game that you can't even think back to how awesome it was to experience all those things on your way up as a new player, then please... don't give new players "advice". Don't gyp them of an awesome MMORPG experience by advising them to hardly experience it at all.

[Prrsha]

It's not the game's fault, for sure. It's the players' fault, because the advice being given to brand-new players who come in hoping to experience this amazing game they've seen people raving about for years is "just power-level to 99 and then solo it all".

I came back to the game recently from a break of ~2 years - probably longer. The change in the community overall (with exceptions) is amazing to me - and not in a good way. Veteran players have become so incredibly jaded and cynical about this game now that it's actually sad to see. I can not fathom what keeps some of them around.

I mean, if people who have "been there and done that" feel that the game has nothing more for them, except waiting for SE to toss them their next bone of end-game content and gear, that's one thing. That's on them.

But I can not stand it to see these same people passing that cynicism on to brand-new players coming in, with 10 years worth of quality content ahead of them - awesome storylines, cut-scenes, characters, dialog, events, challenges, and on and on... all that stuff that we went through and got to experience. All of that is still there. It doesn't cease to exist just because you've ("you" in general) finished it.

I mean, I read other forums, and I see it time and again. Someone new comes in eagerly and excitedly looking for people to group up with on their own journey through the game. Without fail, they're told, "Don't bother. FFXI now is all about the end-game. All that content now is obsolete and none of it matters anymore. Just get to 99 and solo it all if you want".

I've seen variations on that exact "advice" given to new players. I mean, really? Just because you (ditto) have seen and done it all and are disenchanted with the game, don't dump all over the experience for a new player.

"Well, the low levels are dead because everyone power-levels to end-game now". You know why everyone power-levels to end-game now? Because the veterans who "know the game best" are telling new players "hey, don't bother with doing low level content, just power level to 99". Go figure, huh? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's in the same vein as new players coming up through the Dunes who would insist that it was impossible to get through them without a power-leveler. I had that debate many times with people who insisted it couldn't be done. Why did they think that? Because when they started playing they saw a bunch of people in the Dunes with Power-Levelers turning the game into 10 levels of whack-a-mole. That's what new players saw, that's what they experienced, that's how they learned the game. Dunes for them became "Get a power-leveler or it's impossible". The idea that they simply should not be fighting mobs 8 levels higher than themselves never occurred to them.

And now it's happening with bitter, jaded and cynical Vets passing their "wisdom" on to new players by telling them that the low level content is out-dated and doesn't matter. For a brand-new player it's not out-dated at all. The stories are still just as great. The cut-scenes are still just as awesome. The fights could still be just as challenging and satisfying to complete. Why the hell would you want to discourage people from experiencing the game we all got to experience on our way up? Just because "you're past all that now and it doesn't matter to you anymore"?

Seriously... If you (again, ditto) are so cynical and so caught up in your own negativity about the game that you can't even think back to how awesome it was to experience all those things on your way up as a new player, then please... don't give new players "advice". Don't gyp them of an awesome MMORPG experience by advising them to hardly experience it at all.

This summarizes it best. New players have yet to experience the Vanadiel that you did. Shouldn't they have an option to do so? Telling someone to get to the end of the game to have any fun in it, sort of discourages a newbee in general. Shouldn't there be a lead up to it? Something inbetween? There was... now that exp is full tilt forward (and the developer is considering making the progress faster) all of that old enjoyable content is lost once you get to level 99. Most of the starting city quests are low level quests and rewards. CoP is a joke at level 99. SE basically tossed out 75% of the existing content for new players. Argue what you will but for FFXI to survive you have to bring in new players and as it stands now, FFXI seems like a members-only club with the attitude of some of the people.

[Arcon]

More activities for low level players are a win in all areas.

No it's not, for two reasons. First, it discourages people who don't have any low level jobs anymore from participating. Second, it's time wasted catering to very few that could be spent fixing some of the gaping flaws this game has, including (but not by any means limited to) content.

Anything targeting mid levels is bad design choice, because it's only temporarily relevant, and only in a very short term. Once you're past the mid levels, you are done with it. Unless it's an amazing event that will match endgame expectations it will be an entirely forgettable experience, and why should development time be spent on that?

New players have yet to experience the Vanadiel that you did. Shouldn't they have an option to do so?

They do. Level Sync to 30 and do Promies. Level Sync to 40 and do Minotaur. Level Sync to 50 and do Ouryu. Level Sync to 60 do the Airship fight.

If you now say that they can't find any people to sync to them, then that alone illustrates the problem: if people don't want to voluntarily do something, your idea is to force them to? How the hell do you think that will make people happier?

If they want a challenge without Level Sync, just let them do Promies with one or two other people at 40. It's still a challenge then, quite tough for some jobs even. It's still there to experience. Of course it won't be quite the same as doing it with a full party at level 30, but that's because it's dated content, which is precisely why more problems would arise from uncapping it than it would fix. People have moved on since then, you can't shout anymore and hope to get a Promy party going. It's a lot tougher to find help with those, that was already the case at the end of the 75 era, and that alone was the reason why the cap was removed in the first place.

Telling someone to get to the end of the game to have any fun in it, sort of discourages a newbee in general.

It didn't discourage the many people I've taken into my shell recently. Three of them just started today, they're Lv.30 ish now (differs because they started at different times and independent of each other) and about to unlock their support jobs sometime soon. The other few people who joined just this week also don't seem to mind, and the ones who joined before neither. Your argument still relies on the idea that the difference between 1 and 99 is huge, but that's not the case. Leveling up comes easy, and it's precisely because of that that people are not intimidated by the statements that the game only really starts there.

[Prrsha]

No it's not, for two reasons. First, it discourages people who don't have any low level jobs anymore from participating. Second, it's time wasted catering to very few that could be spent fixing some of the gaping flaws this game has, including (but not by any means limited to) content.

They do. Level Sync to 30 and do Promies. Level Sync to 40 and do Minotaur. Level Sync to 50 and do Ouryu. Level Sync to 60 do the Airship fight.

If you now say that they can't find any people to sync to them, then that alone illustrates the problem: if people don't want to voluntarily do something, your idea is to force them to? How the hell do you think that will make people happier?

If they want a challenge without Level Sync, just let them do Promies with one or two other people at 40. It's still a challenge then, quite tough for some jobs even. It's still there to experience. Of course it won't be quite the same as doing it with a full party at level 30, but that's because it's dated content, which is precisely why more problems would arise from uncapping it than it would fix. People have moved on since then, you can't shout anymore and hope to get a Promy party going. It's a lot tougher to find help with those, that was already the case at the end of the 75 era, and that alone was the reason why the cap was removed in the first place.



It didn't discourage the many people I've taken into my shell recently. Three of them just started today, they're Lv.30 ish now (differs because they started at different times and independent of each other) and about to unlock their support jobs sometime soon. The other few people who joined just this week also don't seem to mind, and the ones who joined before neither. Your argument still relies on the idea that the difference between 1 and 99 is huge, but that's not the case. Leveling up comes easy, and it's precisely because of that that people are not intimidated by the statements that the game only really starts there.

Your arguements fall short as I have already said in other posts that lvl synching just to do promies the old way is a pain. You need a puppet character... of that EXACT level to synch down to. Sure I can find people that are level 41 or 44 but EXACTLY 40? That's asking alot. Do you really think a newbee has thought all of that through before accidently leveling their job above the CoP norm? No. All I am asking for is an option for players to choose a cap or not. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything by that. Limiting options of playstyles is short sided. While you might enjoy to solo CoP at 99 I have no problem with that. If it makes you happy go for it! But don't deny other players the oppertunity who may want to do things the old way, just for enjoyment's sake. Like I said, a simple patch reinstating the level cap as an OPTION wouldn't be too hard of an undertaking to code as the elements are already there.

As for your arguement about low level content, that falls short as well. Read my posts before before just posting the same stuff over and over again. The low level content should ALLOW high levels to take part in with a temp level cap however we all agree SE needs to rework the event concepts 1st along with gear storage.

Anything targeting mid levels is bad design choice, because it's only temporarily relevant, and only in a very short term. Once you're past the mid levels, you are done with it. Unless it's an amazing event that will match endgame expectations it will be an entirely forgettable experience, and why should development time be spent on that?

Why shouldn't be an amazing event? Because you say so? You made my entire point. The reason why grinding from level 10 to 75 was so "boring" as you say, because there was no content to do inbetween that offered exp like some large scale event like say a revamped besiged. If you have fun low level, large scale events, exping at low levels (working together with teammates)... like in Campaign or whathaveyou would be a blast. Instead, yes, you have the simple solo wack a mole strategy that you dislike (and others enjoy). My thoughts are to bring endgame events to lower levels but offer large exp rewards as well for them. Don't grease the rail to 99 with nothing of worth to do inbetween or you will (like I said before in many comments) toss 75% of the existing world of vanadiel out the window. No one will explore it, nor inhabit it.

You need to think outside of the box and not only think of yourself, but in the minds of new players coming to the game for the first time. This game NEEDS new player retention or, yes, it will die. I hope SE will opt to keep them in the game with engaging content instead of a "sit AFK in x location and reach level 99 by book burning to enjoy this game 1st".

[Eyeballed]

What she said.

Reducing the need for open-world one instance at a time. Spam-grinding out for that next gear just to get a little better. And for what? - to kill the next one in line just to get a little better. No adventure, no story, no need for anything but your epeen and glory.

[Demon6324236]

Reducing the need for open-world one instance at a time. Spam-grinding out for that next gear just to get a little better. And for what? - to kill the next one in line just to get a little better. No adventure, no story, no need for anything but your epeen and glory.

Sounds alot like xp, killing 1 crab to get a little stronger to kill another crab and so on, nothing really getting done along the way except more of the poor crab people dying at the hands of adventurers. Just to inform you though, Abyssea has a story, even if not great, VW has a story as well, SoA is sure to have a story, SoA sounds like exploration will be a big part, VW forces you to goto nearly every area in the game at some point for at least 1 fight. Xp parties had little exploration, it was the same camps, you went there, you killed things, you left, you didn't walk around for 3 hours with your party moving from place to play killing things for xp, you sat in a corner, had someone pull a nearby mob to it, and kill it, and kept doing that for hours.

At lower levels you had to get gear, use that gear for some time, and discard it in most cases because it became outdated and worthless. In todays game, any gear that is worth while will basically always be, it will over time be out done, but its never some trash gear, unless it was always trash gear. You talk of exploration, adventure, story, yet I remember none of this that existed being taken away really. The story is still there, I for the life of me can not recall a story part that involved my character magically becoming a weakling by compare to his normal abilities because he stepped into a certain area to fight a minotaur. I think exploration is encouraged when there is something to find which you do not know where it is, which means there isn't much in this game or many MMOs in my opinion, story does encourage it a bit with all the running around missions have you do.

I honestly do not see what this game lost that xp is gone other than the xp grind died, and the gear grind came to be, the advantage of the gear grind is many of my jobs can use the same gear, xp however is tied to a job. In the old days I could level up my RDM, but my DRK was lv1, now my DRK is 99, and if I ever finish leveling my DRG, it has alot of good gear to grow into as soon as it hits those levels.

[Eyeballed]

Sounds alot like xp, killing 1 crab to get a little stronger to kill another crab and so on, nothing really getting done along the way except more of the poor crab people dying at the hands of adventurers.

...And that's the real kicker: This new mindless grind is your endgame. It's all you have to look forward to, but as I've said before, for some reason the lot of you embrace it as something new simply because you're not going to a particular point on the map and killing the same mobs over and over again to progress. It's different! Gotcha!

[FrankReynolds]

...And that's the real kicker: This new mindless grind is your endgame. It's all you have to look forward to, but as I've said before, for some reason the lot of you embrace it as something new simply because you're not going to a particular point on the map and killing the same mobs over and over again to progress. It's different! Gotcha!

It's different in that you get to use all the abilities that your job has to offer and the strategies that come with that, versus using a limited set of abilities and strategies for no reason other than to have limits.

[Demon6324236]

...And that's the real kicker: This new mindless grind is your endgame. It's all you have to look forward to, but as I've said before, for some reason the lot of you embrace it as something new simply because you're not going to a particular point on the map and killing the same mobs over and over again to progress. It's different! Gotcha!

Wait, is it the same, or different? I cant help but read that in a sarcastic tone, if its not different, then why are you complaining in the 1st place?

[Eyeballed]

Wait, is it the same, or different? I cant help but read that in a sarcastic tone, if its not different, then why are you complaining in the 1st place?

Just to clarify, sarcasm was intended. With regard to your question, two words: Open world. What would be the point/purpose in it?