Interim Report – Sorry to keep you all waiting!

[Chocobits]

It's not crazy at all. I humorously made the same remark in another thread very recently.

I don't want anyone to get any ideas: I really don't care about this debate about fast leveling vs slow leveling. I'm in the neutral camp. Fast or slow, as long as I'm enabled to perform missions, quests, and events, I don't really care.

I'm honestly surprised no one caught Sunrider's post. Actually I shouldn't be since everyone was caught up in their "NO U!" argument.



I'll take what Sunrider said, and take it a step further: There is sort of gratifying goal in this MMO. This game is a static, uneventful world that never changes, regardless of your level. Literally everything in this game stays the same no matter what you do, and it's a shame because this world is so elaborate, yet so little is done with it.

So really, what is everyone's goal with this game? To get the next level? To get the next shiney? To get the bestest gear in the game? Who cares about any of that stuff if you can't do anything with it? And I feel that's why Matsui keeps everything at level 99. Because what's the point otherwise? Leveling up and getting new gear means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I missed his post completely too, but I essentially wrote exactly the same thing. That low level exp anything would benefit from refresh and more defined job abilities and party roles. +1'd

[detlef]

XPing at a low level isn't even the same game as it is at 99. You have almost no abilities, a weak WS, no gear to swap, no spells. It's simply not fun for me. And I certainly would not be learning a single thing while XPing. Maybe a case can be made for the mid-levels, 50-60 or so. By that point you do have a lot of your job-defining abilities and spells.

For me personally, I would have quit if my first job was not BRD. I would not have been able to handle not being invited and I would not have met my girlfriend in my endgame linkshell. Maybe in 2005 I could handle it, but I have grown up quite a bit since then and I cannot spend 12 hours to get one level anymore.

[Arcon]

It's not pointless though. Do you love playing MMO's? When was the last time you picked one up that you didn't touch another video game for years, period? That was me and FFXI in 2005; For 4.5 years I did not play a single game outside of it. It was exactly what I loved and the game was a success and I refuse to believe the only reason it was a success is because secretly there was a majority of players that despised backbone of its content. Bullshit, I say.

I absolutely agree with everything you said. It's bullshit that a majority of players despised the backbone of its content. Only EXP is not that backbone. It was an experience that introduced the game to the players. For about the first 10 levels. After that it was endless repetition until 75. It was not essential, it was not crucial. If the game started at 50 back when it was released, and if they autocapped everyone to 75 when the cap was increased, it still would have been a great game and would have had everything that most people loved about it.

Ok, here's the gist: what is EXPing? A way to develop your character. And I love developing my character, it's the sole reason I play this MMORPG. I invested in Arcon and I wanna see him grow, and myself with him. I want him to progress, to learn, to get experience (not necessarily EXP) and skill (not necessarily skill levels). I love working towards obtaining a new spell, that's why I loved getting Meteor. So if I like developing my character in certain directions, why don't I like EXP?

And the answer is a lot simpler than some of you seem to think. It was boring. That is the only reason. I already said a few posts ago, if SE managed to find an interesting way to introduce EXP, it would be an entirely different story. However, the gap between 1 and 99 is immense, it's pretty much impossible to fill it with unrepetitive content. It doesn't work. And they can't make it challenging, if they do, casual people would not make it anymore. Old EXP was about the easiest thing in the entire game, and still people failed, because everyone was doing it, not just the best. Even people with little to no experience and/or brains. That means that people who were good at it were extremely bored while people who sucked at it were challenged to the point of frustrated if they made a reputation and couldn't get invites anymore (I know a few of those notorious people on Leviathan and still remember them, I'm pretty sure other servers had similar idiots).

I don't have anything against leveling up or EXP gain per se. The reason why I'm against it now is because it's impossible to implement it in a way that's fun and challenging to people with an IQ larger than their shoe size without making it inaccessible to the masses. It just doesn't work. And, as I also mentioned before, because anything EXP-related they add now will not affect a majority of the population.

These are the facts. Anything after that is up for interpretation. Like the claims that the EXP system was what turned old players off this new game, which I find completely ridiculous, but I have no way to disprove it, so I won't bother. I'm just pointing out that that's your take on it, not a fact.

Or your opinion that old people liked EXP and that was the reason why they stuck around. Not everyone was aversed to FFXI like you were. On the other hand, it's a fact that EXP was a minor part of FFXI. And I'm not talking subjectively. Sure, for you it may have been big, but objectively compared with how much content there was aside from it, it still took up a very minor part. There were missions (which is a very broad category, and some say playing through CoP was one of the defining features of their FFXI experience), quests, crafting, Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, sea, sky, HNMs, Assaults, Nyzul, Salvage, Campaign, xNMs (which includes a massive variety of battlefields, BCNMs, KSNMs, ENMs, SCNMs, ANNMs and ZNMs being the ones I can think of) and even Ballista and random wandering around hunting for minor NMs (like LL, Goblintrap, Argus, etc.). This game was full of content that did not relate to EXP in any way. Even back then there were quite a few people who got by without EXPing at all, which alone proves how insignificant it could be to some people.

So to sum up, some objective facts:

• EXP was a minor part of the game (see above), even more so now (above + Abyssea, Voidwatch, Meeble Burrows, Nyzul Isle Uncharted, Legion, new Einherjar/Limbus, soon new Salvage)
• EXP was repetitive content (little variety in mobs and even in camps after Level Sync was introduced)
• EXP was not challenging (easy targets were chosen, no annoying TP moves, no area effects, no screwing with enmity, no weird status effects, nothing to prepare for endgame)
• EXP was tedious (finding camps and getting there) and time consuming (could take months to get to 75)
• EXP was difficult to set up (finding working job combinations, hoping enough people were even lfp) and sometimes excluded certain jobs entirely (BLM, SMN, PUP and BST were all favorites of not getting picked)
• EXP formed bonds, some friends were made through it since you were in a party for several hours
• EXP caused drama and frustration because of stupid players, lack of combined skill resulting in wipes and/or camp competition

I understand that there's people who have no problem with these things and can, in fact, embrace them. Especially the second-to-last point seems to appeal to certain people so much that they use it as the backbone for their entire argument (all the claims that fast EXP ruined the community and linkshells stem from this point). However, most of these points were of a negative nature, and I don't see how anyone can rationally defend them.

Saying you miss them is perfectly fine. Saying you want them back also. Saying that most people liked it and that it's the reason people quit and the game is dying is wishful thinking on your part.

[Ceinwyn]

This debate is so pointless so I'll keep it short!
I forecast this:
SE is bored of this game, this is clear!
The uptades and the team put on the game are/is and will stay at a rock-bottom level to keep it barely alive!
New Expansion will be downloadable and offer minimal content, oh and it's relase will be delayed to 2014!
They shit on the economy of the world and encourage speed-lvling because it's easy mode
and probably most do like EASY-MODE!
They know the game will suffer and that they can't keep up with the content since everyone is 99 in a day
but they just don't care because it doesn't matter at all.
People will move on to FFXIV anyway, old players will go there anyway and new ones also if they are done with maxing all their jobs, thx to speedlvling yeah! and have finished or are bored of the poor endgame content what is all the game has left now, we're genius!!!
So let's hope ffxiv will be any good my fellow players because i don't belive in this game anymore.
I really recommend everyone to move on to something else and leave the actual poor playerbase alone and let em enjoy their left time we had ours i guess (: ,
with the release of FFXIV: A realm reborn. This game will take another serious drop on poulation and because of that mister, accompanied by other factors, I'm pretty sure it will go to hell.

[wildsprite]

I think you will find that quite a lot of FFXI players wont touch FFXIV, many will, but not enough so they will need new players in order to make up for that, don't expect FFXIV:ARR to make that big of a difference just because you are excited about it. the reason the original failed was many factors, the biggest of which it made many of the systems it ran on choke, if ARR doesn't alleviate this problem it will not replace FFXI because the simple fact is FFXI runs on older systems and many people with those older systems cannot afford to upgrade to one that will handle XIV as it was properly, we shall see if ARR fixes that, I'm not going to hold my breath though

[Eyeballed]

I absolutely agree with everything you said. It's bullshit that a majority of players despised the backbone of its content. Only EXP is not that backbone. It was an experience that introduced the game to the players. For about the first 10 levels. After that it was endless repetition until 75. It was not essential, it was not crucial. If the game started at 50 back when it was released, and if they autocapped everyone to 75 when the cap was increased, it still would have been a great game and would have had everything that most people loved about it.

Without getting too much into the semantics of relating anatomy with a game, in a game where you actually do not begin the game at cap, the mere requirement of players to (ad)venture out and gain levels one by one to support the subsequent requirements of those skills gained in the process sounds more like the backbone than anything else. That's the way I see it; You may not agree.

On the other hand, if your biggest gripe and defense is that grinding was simply too boring for your tastes, I have something else to say. There are things in life nobody really likes doing. We don't like doing them because we feel, personally, they're not necessary or shouldn't apply to us because we're special.

But also, as with many aspects of life, rarely do you get to enjoy the just rewards of anything before putting in some work. And what is work? - a pain in the ass. I'm sorry you don't like your job because the idiots around you hold the group back. I'm sorry you can't enjoy your job as much as I enjoy mine.

Yet, you seem to think that life is primarily about rewards. Let me say this: Rewards do not exist properly without the struggle. Without dinner there is no dessert. Simple logic.

[FrankReynolds]

As soon as they added monsters and events that could only be beat by level capped groups of characters, leveling your character became a means to an end and until they remove all level capped content, it will always be so.

You can add whatever twists you want on the debate, but the fact of the matter is that the old methods of leveling are still present. The people who enjoy them are not. Removing all the new fast methods of exping will not make all the old people come back and exp with you. They are gone. Or to be more accurate... They are still here, but they don't want to do that anymore. You can't force people to be your friend and do stuff with you.

[Arcon]

Yet, you seem to think that life is primarily about rewards. Let me say this: Rewards do not exist properly without the struggle. Without dinner there is no dessert. Simple logic.

The current state of the game disagrees with you. Now we have dessert without dinner. So it is possible. Although it's an oddly phrased metaphor, as dinner is normally also delicious. And unlike EXP, it's also essential. EXP gave nothing relevant to FFXI except raise your level. The "journey" as you call it is a sham. It's not a hike across a mountain in the beautiful countryside, but slowly dragging through big city sewers. Sure, at the end you're relieved. But it was a voyage of pain and despair and gave you nothing but exotic diseases.

Games are precisely there to not be bound by real life restrictions. It's like saying you shouldn't be able to start up Mario Party until you read through the entire manual and have a written exam on it, because it prepares you for the game. "You must first endure torture to have fun" is not a good game mentality. I understand that some people were drawn to it, and that's good for them, but not good for everyone else. This is good for everyone else.

[Eyeballed]

The current state of the game disagrees with you. Now we have dessert without dinner. So it is possible. Although it's an oddly phrased metaphor, as dinner is normally also delicious. And unlike EXP, it's also essential. EXP gave nothing relevant to FFXI except raise your level. The "journey" as you call it is a sham. It's not a hike across a mountain in the beautiful countryside, but slowly dragging through big city sewers. Sure, at the end you're relieved. But it was a voyage of pain and despair and gave you nothing but exotic diseases.

Games are precisely there to not be bound by real life restrictions. It's like saying you shouldn't be able to start up Mario Party until you read through the entire manual and have a written exam on it, because it prepares you for the game. "You must first endure torture to have fun" is not a good game mentality. I understand that some people were drawn to it, and that's good for them, but not good for everyone else. This is good for everyone else.

Way to take some sound wisdom out of context to loosely support your argument. Simply put, I believe, you're not willing to put in the work for your rewards and only want to eat your cake and have it too just because in a perfect world, (your world), that's the way things would work out best. Not to worry though, it looks like SE and most developers are on your side, and the overall interest in new MMO's reflects it.

And in case you're wondering, I concur: Neither developers nor yourself have any idea what you're doing to the genre.

[Prrsha]

The current state of the game disagrees with you. Now we have dessert without dinner. So it is possible. Although it's an oddly phrased metaphor, as dinner is normally also delicious. And unlike EXP, it's also essential. EXP gave nothing relevant to FFXI except raise your level. The "journey" as you call it is a sham. It's not a hike across a mountain in the beautiful countryside, but slowly dragging through big city sewers. Sure, at the end you're relieved. But it was a voyage of pain and despair and gave you nothing but exotic diseases.

Games are precisely there to not be bound by real life restrictions. It's like saying you shouldn't be able to start up Mario Party until you read through the entire manual and have a written exam on it, because it prepares you for the game. "You must first endure torture to have fun" is not a good game mentality. I understand that some people were drawn to it, and that's good for them, but not good for everyone else. This is good for everyone else.

The missed fact most people don't see is that the Final Fantasy franchise is NOT Mario Party, Halo or Half-life. It is Final Fantasy. It is a distinct genre of a level based progression system, where time and battles = exp and exp is seen as a reward. If you take out that equation, it is just not Final Fantasy anymore. You have a different kind of game. SE owns alot of franchises. They own the rights to many games, with play styles like the before mentioned games. If they wish to make clones of them, shouldn't they make a new titled game to appeal to those masses insteads of destroying a nitche franchise game that has been a hallmark of Square?

If you play a FF# game, expect the following: experience points, gear progression, ability progression and time sinks. All of those wrapped up in an engrossing storyline. If you want to play a game like Half-life, I am sure there are many others out there that will suit your needs. This is just an example of a company trying to pander to waaaay too many different backbone playstyles at once (instead of its nitch) and losing its core design in the process. It's like Disney trying to make petroleum instead of animated movies.

In sort they messed up a good thing. Now they are in damage control mode and asking a skewed ratio of customers what they want in the game. It's like the blind leading the blind now... and I can't blame them. Most of the people that designed FFXI and it's expansions have moved on to other companies (citing complaints of restrictions of their creative freedom in the design process).