Utsusemi: San?

[Kincard]

Even ignoring that, NIN is outclassed by THF and DNC on its own turf (Dual Wielding), which just strikes me as confusing. THFs and DNCs get better JAs and better traits. Look at what NIN is missing compared to those two:

1. Several useful traits (Acc bonus, crit dam bonus, hell, eva bonus)
2. Powerful DPS JAs (Sneak/trick attack, reverse/building/wild flourish)
3. No strong weapon skill. Hi, as strong as it is inside Abyssea, is pretty derp outside. It's definately weaker than Exenterator, Rudra's Storm, Mercy Stroke or Chant Du Cygne.

While you may want to counter that with "NIN can debuff and tank!", that doesn't really hold much water because a DNC can also debuff and tank the same mid-level targets with Fan Dance relatively well. Not to mention the solid Cures and Stuns. NIN is also pretty severely limited by its gear choice. In its pursuit of lowering delay as much as possible, NIN loses out on a massive amount of DEX that DNC, THF, and BLU all get along with their Haste.

Out of these three jobs the heirarchy would make more sense as THF bein the top DPS (Since that's basically their only function outside of TH), with NIN and DNC about equal. Instead you have DNC leading the DPS (well, depends on the target I guess) with THF in second and NIN in a very distant third.

[Vold]

Well I guess at this point my desire is far stronger to see a return to an unnerfed nin sub(4 shadows instead of 3)than seeing San added. I also now presume that nin +2 emp feet were their way of giving us our San without a scroll. I can live with that. Now let's deal with that /nin issue that is no longer an issue due to the state of the game, not to mention nin +2 feet that anyone really can obtain...

[Raksha]

I'll trade you Rudra's for that 4th ni shadow.

[Babekeke]

I'll trade you Rudra's for that 4th ni shadow.

Why would NIN want Rudra's? It sucks if you can't force it to crit (which NIN can't unless you're ... /THF).

And to the person who said Exenterator beats all Katana WS, they'll probably find that the same applies. Force crit only. But, seeing as NIN can use Exenterator, it's a non-issue anyway. And you can use Aluh Jambiya^^

[noirin]

If my LS Leader is one to believe, i recall at some point in this game's life, Jubaku:Ni and Utsu: San were Nin merits.Though i'd have to take his word for it considering i haven't been around for the decade he has been.

[Kincard]

I'll trade you Rudra's for that 4th ni shadow.

I'll just take the DEX mod and keep Hi, also give me crit damage bonus and we'll call it a deal!

If my LS Leader is one to believe, i recall at some point in this game's life, Jubaku:Ni and Utsu: San were Nin merits.Though i'd have to take his word for it considering i haven't been around for the decade he has been.

Nope. None of the job-specific merits have ever been completely changed. Pretty much the only significant adjustments they've had since their creation are those adjustments we got a couple months back. For NIN, it's always been the San elementals, Sange, and NTE.

The Ninjutsu damage adjustments they made made the San spells fun to play with, but they're still worthless outside Abyssea. Even inside Abyssea they're more of a gil-tossing gimmick than anything.

That's another thing. Every single NIN merit is completely worthless. The only ones that are actually useful have zero effect on the Ninja's output (Subtle Blow, NTE).

I mean, it's clear what SE wants NIN to be- they want them to be a job that can adapt to basically any situation. On paper, it sounds great- we can do moderate melee DPS, and switch on the fly instantly to deal ranged damage or magic damage as the situation calls for. Sounds like a dream job VS all those monsters that have special defense shields. Of course, we all know what problems with both those are.

The way I see it, SE has two choices:
1. Buff Ninja's melee DPS and more or less completely drop the ranged/magic aspects of the class. This is the easiest route.
2. In order to fulfill the hybrid class vision SE has for NIN, the following things have to happen:
-Buff Ninja's ranged and magic damage by a significant amount. See related thread about Sange and Elemental Ninjutsus. They seriously need to be doing like 10x more damage than they do right now to be worth it at all. Change elemental Ninjutsus so that they inflict elemental def down instead of just resist down.
-Broaden, I mean really, really broaden, a Ninja's spell repertoire, so that their spellcasting abilities may carry some relevance in high-tier endgame. In these cases NIN will shift completely into a support role and backup tank. Key spells would include higher level Aisha and Yurin, A Dispel and Stun Ninjutsu, a Plague Ninjutsu (Complements the whole subtle blow aspect anyway), self-buff Critical Hit Rate+, spell of one of the following: DEF down, Crit DEF down, Crit Eva Down. A Diffusion-like ability, and a massive amount of Ninjutsu skill gear/inherent magic accuracy in Ninjutsu spells.

[Kincard]

Yeah, I mentioned that the biggest game-changer was JAs, IE SATA for THF and Wild Flourish from DNCs.

Rudra's Storm probably wouldn't be any good on NIN but outside Abyssea Exenterator will probably beat Blade: Hi or Blade: Shun quite often. And telling me to use Aluh Jambiya obviously doesn't work because despite Dagger being NIN's second highest weapon skill, it's still a C skill and you lose massive amounts of acc/attack switching to a dagger:

Blade: Hi 4.0 fTP Crit, 60% AGI
Blade: Shun 0.6875 (+0.2) fTP Five Hits, Attack penalty, 100% DEX
Exenterator: 1.0 Four Hits, 100% AGI

For me, Hi generally beats Shun outside Abyssea on average despite having some really bad pits due to misses. Shun's big dealbreaker is the attack penalty. It's disadvantage VS Exenterator is also that wearing Gorget/Belt means missing out on two slots that you've could've stacked more dStat in, and Exenterator actually adds a really nice add effect on top of doing lots of damage (Dear SE: Make Blade: Kamu more like Exenterator).

Ultimately, yeah, you're right that Exenterator isn't a huge boon over Hi or Shun when directly compared, but I guess I was more disappointed that Shun serves no real purpose to a NIN with Kannagi, whereas Exenterator is bar none the best unstacked WS a THF can do unless they're in Abyssea.

[Babekeke]

Ultimately, yeah, you're right that Exenterator isn't a huge boon over Hi or Shun when directly compared, but I guess I was more disappointed that Shun serves no real purpose to a NIN with Kannagi, whereas Exenterator is bar none the best unstacked WS a THF can do unless they're in Abyssea.

Maybe it's due to my gear, but I find DE to be on par with Exen. Usually I'll use Exen for the acc down though, and DE if a mob needs another WS to kill it.

[lllen]

Lol, heard they were giving us a bigger "Boom". All it's used for is travel, or weaken and rr fighting an NM. So does that mean we can get back to Jeuno faster?

[Areayea]

if we're gonna talk about utsu san... we HAVE to talk about Dokumori: Ni, Jubaku: Ni, and the other enfeeble's San, it hardly makes any sense that dyna mobs (mobs like 15 lvls below use) can use those enfeebles, and we can't O.o