Un-gimping magic procs in dynamis

[Kincard]

Re: WS procs being too slow. In theory, since you're proccing using an ability you'd use over the course of a battle anyway, you'd end up coming pretty close to coins yield because you're killing really fast to make up for the fact that you only proc a fraction of the monsters you fight. Get a couple more chances at +2 items as well since those don't seem to be affected by procs.

It works in theory only if there's an infinite number of monsters and your WS numbers are large enough to be outdoing the time you'd spend JA-ing and holding monsters at 5% HP. WS proc rate is pretty high honestly. Maybe I'll try seeing what happens if I try to bulldose through a camp maximizing my damage and only incidentally getting procs. I doubt it'll come near the bill yield of JAs, but considering it takes a lot less finesse to do it could work if I'm in a caveman mood.

[Phogg]

Re: WS procs being too slow. In theory, since you're proccing using an ability you'd use over the course of a battle anyway, you'd end up coming pretty close to coins yield because you're killing really fast to make up for the fact that you only proc a fraction of the monsters you fight. Get a couple more chances at +2 items as well since those don't seem to be affected by procs.

It works in theory only if there's an infinite number of monsters and your WS numbers are large enough to be outdoing the time you'd spend JA-ing and holding monsters at 5% HP. WS proc rate is pretty high honestly. Maybe I'll try seeing what happens if I try to bulldose through a camp maximizing my damage and only incidentally getting procs. I doubt it'll come near the bill yield of JAs, but considering it takes a lot less finesse to do it could work if I'm in a caveman mood.

I have tried, its not even remotely close. Even in a competitive run, JA's will win out by a tremendous amount compared to killing WS mobs with no competition. Like I said, I can attempt 3 zero dmg WS procs as THF before an EP mob dies from my normal melee attacks just trying to get TP for energy drain. So, just to attempt 3 procs per mob I already need to vastly slow down my kill speed, and that third ws is not always there. If I were actually using a normal WS to proc, they would die after 1 WS + melee dmg. I can technically double the attempts on DC's but many times I need to use TP to cure myself because the DCs hit considerably harder, and killing them takes much longer, which again reduces your net result compared to killing EPs during JA time.

As BST/dnc you can attempt 3 procs in the first 5 seconds of a battle, and continue attempts every 8 seconds or so after that, with minimal impact on your DD output. If you actually went full bulldoze mode during WS time, as you suggest, you would kill all the mobs really fast, that's for sure, and you would also proc maybe 15% of them. The ones you don't, even on thf will net you maybe 1 coin for every 5 kills. In that same amount of time you would proc and kill at least 3 mobs using JA's, and even at a conservative average of 2 coins per proc'd mob, that's 6 for JA, 1 coin for WS. One proc attempt per mob will not get it done, not even close, not in the same state, not in the same country as JA's. The system requires proc's to net a reasonable amount of coins for your effort.

There are maybe 1/5~6 mobs I need to turn for to make sure I JA proc at low HP, and the reason people do so is because getting that !! really is critical, its the difference between getting nothing, and getting up to 4 coins. So, even if I ignored those and just pushed through and did not slow my kill rate, I would still proc roughly 3~4/5 mobs with JAs. Considering on BST/dnc you can proc a mob fairly swiftly, WS >> snarl and leave to proc another mob without slowing your kill rate at all, procing 1/5 mobs with WS (at best) will net a dramatically worse result. Give it a go, it will take you all of 30 minutes in dyna to give up on it entirely and go back to using JAs. If you do an entire two hour run on only WS mobs, you will look back and wish you never wasted the time figuring out it would take 4-5 runs of dynamis in WS time to get as many coins as one run in JA time.

[hiko]

I have tried, its not even remotely close. Even in a competitive run, JA's will win out by a tremendous amount compared to killing WS mobs with no competition. Like I said, I can attempt 3 zero dmg WS procs as THF before an EP mob dies from my normal melee attacks just trying to get TP for energy drain. So, just to attempt 3 procs per mob I already need to vastly slow down my kill speed, and that third ws is not always there. If I were actually using a normal WS to proc, they would die after 1 WS + melee dmg. I can technically double the attempts on DC's but many times I need to use TP to cure myself because the DCs hit considerably harder, and killing them takes much longer, which again reduces your net result compared to killing EPs during JA time.

As BST/dnc you can attempt 3 procs in the first 5 seconds of a battle, and continue attempts every 8 seconds or so after that, with minimal impact on your DD output. If you actually went full bulldoze mode during WS time, as you suggest, you would kill all the mobs really fast, that's for sure, and you would also proc maybe 15% of them. The ones you don't, even on thf will net you maybe 1 coin for every 5 kills. In that same amount of time you would proc and kill at least 3 mobs using JA's, and even at a conservative average of 2 coins per proc'd mob, that's 6 for JA, 1 coin for WS. One proc attempt per mob will not get it done, not even close, not in the same state, not in the same country as JA's. The system requires proc's to net a reasonable amount of coins for your effort.

There are maybe 1/5~6 mobs I need to turn for to make sure I JA proc at low HP, and the reason people do so is because getting that !! really is critical, its the difference between getting nothing, and getting up to 4 coins. So, even if I ignored those and just pushed through and did not slow my kill rate, I would still proc roughly 3~4/5 mobs with JAs. Considering on BST/dnc you can proc a mob fairly swiftly, WS >> snarl and leave to proc another mob without slowing your kill rate at all, procing 1/5 mobs with WS (at best) will net a dramatically worse result. Give it a go, it will take you all of 30 minutes in dyna to give up on it entirely and go back to using JAs. If you do an entire two hour run on only WS mobs, you will look back and wish you never wasted the time figuring out it would take 4-5 runs of dynamis in WS time to get as many coins as one run in JA time.

thf is not a good job to WS proc dyna doesn't mean no job can do better ws procing

[FrankReynolds]

thf is not a good job to WS proc dyna doesn't mean no job can do better ws procing

WHat job would you say is better? And how does that change anything in his post?

[Kristal]

What job would you say is better?

PUP. The same mechanism that is a bane in Abyssea is a boon in Dynamis.

And how does that change anything in his post?

It's mostly complaining about certain job/subjob combinations that already have a distinct advantage are not good at everything.

Noone is good on magic procs, not even RDM, although the math shows that you actually need slightly less then twice the proc attempts to get a proc compared to WS and JA.

[Mirage]

Or they do dyna on a nonmage job .

[Phogg]

I'm sorry, but requiring one single job (pup) to do anything useful in WS time does not mean WS procs are good compared to JAs. Go try it on any other job besides PUP and let me know what happens.

The answer to systemic issues should never be, level this one job. Is that not why there are so many dynawagon BSTs out there everyone loves to complain about?

[Doombringer]

whatever happened to the idea of allowing enspells to proc magic weaknesses?

granted this would heavily favor one job, and therefore many might brush it off immediately, but lets follow through with the idea for a bit. humor me.

if enspells proced magic weakness; RDM would become the magic proc diva job. just like WS has pup and JA has dnc. any job that could effectively sub rdm would also benefit (pld? blu?), just like how many jobs benefit from subbing dnc now.

so if you look at it as a job balance issue, it doesn't really help. it just adds one job to the "valid" list. but if you look at it from a proc balance perspective... i'd say it's perfectly fine? it opens up that unused third of dynamis, thus alleviating potential congestion.

also consider this; would an rdm procing magic via enspell actually do BETTER than a dnc or a bst procing JA as they do now? if anything i'd think blu/rdm would be the most potentially overpowered here, but that still pulls them out of subbing dnc and doing JA procs.

if it's a little bit better, hurray. it'll pull people out of the popular camps, so the popular camps end up also slightly buffed. (due to less competition) if it's a little bit worse, it's still an option to avoid that competition. i know my personal returns vary heavily depending on how many other people are in there, so i'd gladly take a 10%-15% cut if it got me around potential competition. (i'd likely end up ahead)


objectively speaking (or as objective as i can be, as i clearly have a dog in this fight) i feel like it would be good for the overall dynamis ecosystem.

[Luvbunny]

whatever happened to the idea of allowing enspells to proc magic weaknesses? if enspells proced magic weakness; RDM would become the magic proc diva job. just like WS has pup and JA has dnc. any job that could effectively sub rdm would also benefit (pld? blu?), just like how many jobs benefit from subbing dnc now.

I dont think they want PLD, RDM or BLU to be more useful. I think it's fantastic idea and quite amazing, it should be implemented pronto with 15% activation rate. If this happens, you can have Rdm/sch and your any melee buddy to have some fun in dynamis. Or your Sch/Rdm friend to have some fun as well. But noooooo, if it is useful for the players, and if it makes RDM useful again, then the idea should be killed. That's the general feedback I am getting from SE.

[Motenten]

The current idea is that raising the proc rate on mage from 8% to ~15% (effectively 2x the proc chances as current, though it's not quite the same thing) would be fairly sufficient to address the problem of balancing total proc rates vs JAs.

If, instead, enspells could proc, we'd have to look at the frequency at which enspells could be applied. Best (or worst, depending on perspective) case: Kraken Club with haste/Marches (~65% haste, depending on the brd), which is about 4 hits every 92 delay, or one hit every 23 delay. [Edit: scratch samba, as that would conflict with enspells; duh]

In other words, going from 1 attempt per 4 seconds to 2.5 attempts per 1 second, or 10 times as many chances. Frankly, that would be broken.

One could perhaps limit it to Enspell II's (so only one chance per round), though that obviously restricts it solely to main job rdm, and you'd still have a chance of up to about 1 swing per second using Joyeuse. Only a 4x increase in the number of chances to proc, but still likely considered unbalanced.

So to balance against those extremes while using enspells you'd have to lower the proc rate further, which makes magic procs for non-enspells even worse unless there's a way to separate out the 'type' of magic used to proc (which may certainly be the case, since enspells have 0% chance right now).

And even assuming you *do* separate out enspell proc rate chances, and make use of normal enspells, you still have about a 3x range in the rate of proc attempts that can be made (varying from basic haste to max, depending on buffs, as well as DA/TA/etc). JAs have fixed timers which restrict the rate; WSs are limited by TP building and how quickly you kill the mob; magic doesn't have either of those, which means you have to use a proc rate value that's suitable for a wide range of potential factors. If you choose a rate for the best case, then anyone without a Kraken Club is screwed over.