Adjustments to Embrava and Perfect Defense

[Yinnyth]

When it's the way they had also thought up, nothing happens, when it's not the way they planned to be used. SUPER NERF! (how many years after they nerf'd drk zerg AV and Modus Veritas AV did it take for them to make that crappy video giving hints?)

I think the problem in this case is that every endgame event, people are using PD, Embrava, or both. These abilities are so powerful that they've become ubiquitous. Most endgame is easy with a good PD or Embrava strategy, and it's easy to see if these were not nerfed, that would be all there is to future endgame events too.

Remember when Meebles was announced? Before anyone had tried it, people were already saying "enter > embrava > ??? > profit" because that's the formula. If it's a tough boss, put up PD and do as much damage as possible quickly. If it's a dungeon crawl, keep embrava up.

These nerfs were deserved, just handled clumsily. Bard and shock squall are probably next up on the chopping block, unfortunately for me.

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.

[Sarick]

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.

Why? I beat it yesterday helping someone I didn't know with two MNK 99 , two WHM 95, one PLD 99, and one BST 95.

No SCH or SNM here only 2 hours used where the MNKs. We used the weakness item at 50% and after that it just died.

[Luvbunny]

These nerfs were deserved, just handled clumsily. Bard and shock squall are probably next up on the chopping block, unfortunately for me.

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.

LMAO please stop sharing good news on other jobs that are actually working as intended, keep these as SECRETS tactics from now on and stop sharing it to the public. As long as they are contained within older contents and abyssea, they seems to not even care one bit. This is why Embrava lasted for almost two years untouched since there were not that many events that require you use it as a defacto strategy apart from the occasional SCH solo NMs etc in Abysea. The more you bring up stories of how amazing jobs XYZ at certain events, the more they will come up with their crazy adjustments. When a job is working as intended for players, keep it to yourself, level that said job, gear it right, know how it works and have fun, but do not post it in the official forum and when people do, ignore the thread.

[Mirage]

Oh, side note... good luck on LB10 post nerf.

Lol, you can do that with 4 non-r/m/e DDs and a whm, as long as you have a single tail. That's right, not even a full party!

Two tails and you can do it with 3 DDs and perhaps not even need a healer. As long as you had someone to buff you, like a brd and/or cor, it'd be fine.

Even if you did bring a sch for it, you'd still have 40% magic haste with just embrava and haste. More than enough for that fight, as it is over in less than a minute anyway.

[Damane]

Greetings everyone!

As was previously mentioned, with the addition of the new special abilities as well as the shortening on the cool down timers for the current special abilities, we are planning to adjust the effects of both Embrava and Perfect Defense. The adjustments will be reflected in this week’s Test Server update, but I’d like to share the information with you beforehand.

• Embrava:
  • Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
  • Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
  • Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.
• Perfect Defense:
  • Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)
  • Effect: No change

Along with the above adjustments, the content that featured these abilities heavily into their strategies will see adjustments as well.

• Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
  We'll be reducing the number of Astrariums necessary to exchange for equipment from 25 to 5.
  *As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.
  
  The idea that you'll need some luck on your side to reach level 100 will not change. While we expect that the number of floors reachable and the frequency will decrease due to the adjustments to Embrava, we decided to balance this by reducing the number of Astrariums required for equipment.
  
  
• Legion
  Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%
  
  This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.
  
  
• Einherjar
  Odin's Chamber II: Odin's HP will be reduced by around 10-15%.
  
  As this is different from Legion and only a single monster battle, we will be adjusting the HP on a slightly larger range.

Besides the above content, Perfect Defense and Embrava are utilized for Arch Dynamis Lord and Provenance Watcher; however, the battle times for these monsters are relatively short, so we would like to monitor the battle situation at their current difficulty.

All of these adjustments will be implemented during the Test Server update this week, but we will continue to look at balance and make adjustments as needed.

I am not against the nerf by any mean (I am a Main sch myself), but those so called "Adjustment" to those battlefields, do nothing and help nothing.
People arent useing embrava and/or PD to make fights easier. They are useing them in the above events so they can have have a chance at surviving all the bullshit those mobs put out.
The problem arent the mobs HP, its those ridicoulus instant AoE death moves that kill every player ardount them.

Dont get me wrong. I dont have a problem if a mob has one AoE move that can wipe almost all people but is stunnable (like gates of hades back then at lvl 75 on cerbers), but if ALL of the moves a mob has does that... you stand no chance at winning without useing embrava and PD.

You should rather reduce the mobs attack power instead of their HP...
All I hear lately is excuses that the Dev team has no time for adjustments/Ideas because of the new Expansion and they get delayed, is the Dev Team now not even anymore capable of pulling out correct, good, reasonable Adjustments that make sense?

[Byrth]

Embrava's duration needs to remain at 5 minutes. Then it will at least be useful as another form of healing.

[Yugl]

* Perfect Defense *
* Duration = (SMN Skill/15) + 30
* Caps at 600
* Effects begin to decay once half of the duration has occurred

* Embrava *

Proposal 1:
* Duration: Reduce duration to 120 seconds (5min duration with Perpetuance and Empyrean +2 Hands)
* Haste: Haste = (Enhancing Magic Skill/50) + 20; Cap at 500 Skill
* Regain: Existing Equation; Cap at 400 Skill
* Regen: Remain the same

Proposal 2:
* Duration Remain the same
* Haste: Haste = (Enhancing Magic Skill/20); Caps at 500 Skill
* Regain: Regain = (Enhancing Magic Skill/250) + 1; Caps at 500 Skill
* Regen: Remain the same

* Nyzul Isle *
* Reduce Astraria needed from 25 to 10
* Random floor jumps from 2-9 become 5-10
* Reduce maximum lamps from 5 to 3

* Legion *
* Increase the charge time for TP moves by 2 seconds
* Reduce the evasion of monsters by 5%
* Reduce the attack of monsters by 20%
* Reduce the defense of monsters by 10%
* Reduce Mul's Wave 2 Mantis's and Mul's Wave 3 Gallu's resistance to stun
* Remove alliance aggro (The mob has hate on everyone within the alliance once a person within the alliance aggros said mob; remove that trait)
* Do not let monsters link with the elemental within the room (No one takes advantage of that because they link)
* Reduce the range of AOEs
* Reduce the duration of Muddle, Charm, Stun, Amnesia, and Encumbrance by 50%
* Allow players to remove Yaksha and Raksha stance by weaponskilling from behind
* Remove additional effects from normal hits

* Odin (Chamber II) *
* Reduce Odin's HP by 10%
* Make Sanguine Tail only dispel up to 5 buffs and not include food
* Reduce Odin's attributes, evasion, attack, and defense by 5% per add the group defeats
* Allow players to stun Odin except for automated moves (Zantetsuken Kai, Zantetsuken, and Yggr)

* Other *
* Improve the effectiveness of Holy Water and Hallowed Water

[Slvr_Stryker]

Okay developers (that is, if Camate and Okipuit actually manage to refer the material listed in this thread to the developers...please, do so so they can be aware of what they're doing), I'm sure by now you guys have seen the, for lack of a better term, "shit storm" that's come across...at least the US side. Cant' say much for the JP side of things, or any other countries, but a loooooooot of us think that this is just the wrong way to go, both with reducing the usefulness of Embrava/Perfect Defense *as well as* reducing the strength of the monsters that we have to fall back on using both abilities. I want to throw this out, as it has been said countless times in this thread alone: people rely on Embrava and Perfect Defense in the current endgame content, not because it makes it easier, but because the content is nigh impossible without using either of these.

That said, let's break down what you've done to these and the repercussions of the changes, as well as some fixes that may actually be feasible to help keep the difficulty high, but reduces the risk enough to help comply with the now-limited abilities. Starting with said abilities:

Embrava:

Effect duration: Currently 5 minutes → Adjusted to 90 seconds
Haste: Currently 1% increase for every 15 enhancing skill points → Adjusted to 1% increase for every 20 enhancing skill points. Maximum of 25% at 500 skill
Regain Effect: While the value will remain unchanged, the Regain effect will be changed to Refresh.

First thing's first, the duration. Dropped from 5 minutes to 1 1/2 minutes. That in and of itself seems like a huge hit, and it is when you apply Perpetuance (I don't know why I said Accession, I'm tired. ^^; ), dropping it from (with Savant Bracers +2 equipped) essentially 12:30 minutes to 3:45 minutes. However, consider the fact that Tabula Rasa lasts for 3 minutes upon usage. It still wouldn't be that terribly broken as people would think because, come the 2 minute mark, you can just reapply Embrava. So essentially, you get 5:45 minutes or more of the Embrava effect, which should be more than enough to get you out of the hole you're in. That being said, I think people would like it more if it was brought to a natural 2 minute duration. Would give just enough oomph to help keep it useful while still limiting it under the drop in 2hrs.

Next thing: Haste. You're basically lopping 9-ish% off of it and capping it at 25% Haste. Again, that *seems* bad, but considering the fact of how easy it is to get Haste these days (25% gear cap, 15% from Haste, 12.7%+ from Victory March alone), I don't think that's going to kill the effective usefulness in any situation.

But then we get to the Regain >> Refresh effect. In a word: no. In more than a word: this should not have been changed, and it comes up to the fact that Refresh, or even ways to get MP back quickly, are miles more plentiful than Regain effects are. For example: my BLU naturally gets 4 MP/tic back by wearing all of three pieces of armor and setting two useful spells, and that's before I cast my 3 MP/tic Refresh spell Battery Charge. Other mages can get crazy amounts of MP/tic back just by wearing gear alone, and that's not including things like Sublimation, the Refresh spells, Convert, or even Devotion. Add on to the fact that a lot of mages also try to carry around at least a Vile Elixir on them so they can have more MP in a pinch, on top of the fact of temporary items in certain events (like Neo-Nyzul Isle, for instance), and it all comes back to the fact that MP restoration is not hard to come by. This effect should not have been touched in the slightest, but if you *absolutely had to*, you probably should have dropped it by 1-2 TP/tic.

Perfect Defense:

Effect duration: Currently 90 seconds → Adjusted to 30 seconds. +1 sec for every 20 summoning skill points, maximum of 60 seconds with 600 skill (30 seconds +30 seconds)

So you're dropping Perfect Defense to an upward maximum of 60 seconds. That's fine and dandy; in fact, that was going to be my suggestion anyway. However, the number you pulled to reach that maximum? Nigh impossible. Let's look at the list.
SMN natural Summoning Magic skill: 417 at cap
Merits: +16
Top-tier Kirin's Pole Augment: +12
Vox Grip: +3
Caller's Horn +2: +9
Caller's Pendant: +9
Summoning Earring: +3
Anhur Robe: +12
Summoner's Bracers +2: +15
Evoker's Ring: +10
Fervor Ring: +4
Astute Cape: +5
Cimmerian Sash: +5
Ngen Seraweels: +10
Rubeus Boots: +10
I'm no SMN, so I may have missed some items, but if you add up all of those numbers, you reach a grand total skill of 540. Which, by your own math, would only add another 27 seconds to Perfect Defense's duration. Unless you plan on adding even more Summoning Magic skill via gear to this game, capping out Perfect Defense's duration is impossible. Either make it so that its duration is 60 seconds up front or, if you absolutely *have* to force SMNs to require skill to cap out duration, make it so that it's 15 skill = 1 additional second. This would drop the skill required to exactly 450, which is more than reasonable to reach.

So we've talked about the abilities that have been changed, what was done wrong, and what could be done to fix it. Now let's talk about the events in question. Major disclaimer: I know absolutely nothing about Arch Dynamis Lord, and I have only done Legion a handful of times, and not even the top floor of it. However, I will at least speak with what I know in correlation with these upcoming changes to both Embrava and Perfect Defense.

Nyzul Isle Uncharted Area Survey
We'll be reducing the number of Astrariums necessary to exchange for equipment from 25 to 5.
*As a result of this, the number of Astrariums players have in possession will be reduced by 1/5.

The idea that you'll need some luck on your side to reach level 100 will not change. While we expect that the number of floors reachable and the frequency will decrease due to the adjustments to Embrava, we decided to balance this by reducing the number of Astrariums required for equipment.

At first, this actually sounds kind of reasonable. Floor 100 is very hard to get to under normal means, and 80 is a little more feasible. However, nothing here really changes. Embrava, while still being quite useful for its Regen and Haste effect, won't be as effective in helping clear boss floors and all enemy floors due to the lack of Regain. Even if you take out Embrava, there's still the curse that is the Order Lamp floors and the floor jumps themselves. As stated elsewhere in this forum by other people, while trying to go up 5 floors in 30 minutes was difficult, but doable in regular Nyzul Isle, trying to get from floor 1 to 80 or 100 in that same amount of time in Neo-Nyzul Isle is just brutal, *especially* if the jumps you obtain are total garbage in succession. And then there's the complication of Order Lamps: again, while hard, but doable when you only have to go up 5 floors in regular Nyzul, in Neo-Nyzul? This can effectively kill runs. For this, you honestly have two options to provide balance to this event: either effectively remove Order Lamps, or make it so the minimum number of floors we can jump up is 5. That still would give us a maximum floor clearance of 20 floors if you want to reach floor 100, which is difficult, but with the strength and abilities we have at this point in the game, reasonably doable.

Legion
Monster HP will be reduced by around 10%

This will be applied to all monsters, and adjusted so the overall pace will become faster making it possible to defeat close to the same amount of monsters as before within the 30 minutes time limit.

Einherjar
Odin's Chamber II: Odin's HP will be reduced by around 10-15%.

As this is different from Legion and only a single monster battle, we will be adjusting the HP on a slightly larger range.

Besides the above content, Perfect Defense and Embrava are utilized for Arch Dynamis Lord and Provenance Watcher; however, the battle times for these monsters are relatively short, so we would like to monitor the battle situation at their current difficulty.

As stated elsewhere in this very thread, the HP monsters have is not the problem. It never *has* been the problem. The problem is all of the high-damage moves that these monsters possess that can very easily one-shot people. Again, the main reason Embrava and Perfect Defense are used on these events, Legion especially, is so that we can survive these attacks that these monsters can deal, and even then, it's very difficult to even survive *with* those abilities if your alliance is not a well-oiled machine. While Provenance Watcher probably won't be too much of an issue, due to the fact that it's under the Voidwatch system, the others may have trouble keeping up, especially if there's virtually no change in the damage that any of these monsters can deal. The changes that should have been made to these monsters should have been related to their other stats, like their incredible attack, the natural defenses of these monsters (defenses that we ourselves aren't able to keep because, again, as stated in these forums by other players, the Defense stat on player characters is virtually useless unless stacked to an unnatural and pointless degree), the critical hit rate that players have upon these monsters, and (probably most important of all), the charge time for instant-death TP abilities or subjective range of TP abilities. These should allow time for stunning, and their range should not be way, way, *WAY* outside of the range that we can effectively cast. These are the changes that should be made to these events that require the current iterations of Embrava and Perfect Defense, *not* the HP reduction only.

tl:dr - Shouldn't have touched Regain on Embrava, reduce the amount of skill needed for max duration on Perfect Defense, reduce more than just the HP on ADL or monsters in Legion to allow us to effectively kill them without needing to *rely* on these abilities.

[Dreamin]

Inb4 SE remove the ability to lock SCH 2hr inside Legion. And the changing of Embrava so that it's party specific.

Seriously, if you're going to pile it on, minds as well make that pile taller. And yeah, SMN 600 is currently impossible to achive, and if I'm you, dont expect to see gears coming out that would let you get there either. The 600 number is just 'if you were able to get to it' but really they have no plans to ever allow you to get it it.

[Sp1cyryan]

*brings out the crystal ball*

The first Dev response will probably be about little besides acknowledging the error of setting PD at the impossible 600 skill and snuffing off the people who do not agree with their hack and slash adjustments.


Let's see if I am right because it does not take a brain surgeon to understand how changes should be made. I really wish the Dev team played this game like the rest of us because if they did they would see how things actually work. As long as the content functions after its made I just assume they nudge it out the door and into the real world so they can make it first and fix it later.

If that is the case then SE made up their minds and we should just ignore using the test server or this thread. Let's see what we get >:-|